Written by: Spirals | Date: 2013-03-13 10:35:40 | Related to: D3CL General

The ruledevelopment team has come up with the latest version of the rules: 1.2.5 Check them out.

Comments

Forti	2013-03-13 00:50
-  Vanishing Dye is not allowed. I agree with that.. sadly.. it is for gear swaping ofc. But monks got a bit nerf here. I use this to hide serenity ;]  it's nerf for monks mirror mostly. I totally agree with dh vs. monk. It have to be like this way. chemical burn is totally overpowered. I hop there wont be any problems and rulez like this will be on next seazon. Good job guys!
Lilith	2013-03-13 00:55
My opinion about dh rules: 1. Why DH companion is not allowed vs wizzard? Bat and ferret runes are OP in this matchup? It's joke? 2. No battle cry barb vs dh. Hmm... Its more balanced than ban IP, but barb lost fury generator and imo better will be ban 7s rune ignore pain. 3. Why no ban for monk's blind? It works when dh use SS that gave to dh immune for any other cc effects... edit: Battle cry? Its war cry or battle rage?^^
Forti	2013-03-13 00:58
Cause it is too hard to apply on dh. Get monk and try do this.. short range = easy too miss. and if we apply it we can get opportunity to get one round. I dont using this skill anymore. too hard too apply and too useless in my opinion.
ricebowl	2013-03-13 01:00
Blind can be dodged.  Most DHs will have anywhere from 45-50%+ chance to avoid the blind automatically.  Also, chemical burn ban = awww yisssssssssssssssssss
Iria	2013-03-13 01:01
When are these rules live? As of the time of this post? Or in a week?
Lilith	2013-03-13 01:02
@forti @ricebowl OK, we can try this way in seson 2;) @Iria In seson 2.
ricebowl	2013-03-13 01:02
I assume these are the tentative rules for the next season after this season ends.  There could still be changes made between now and then.
Spirals	2013-03-13 01:04
I assume these are the tentative rules for the next season after this season ends.  There could still be changes made between now and then. [/quote] Yes, for clarification: this rules are for season 2; the current season will not be affected by these.
Lilith	2013-03-13 01:10
@Spirals What is battle cry? Can u link this skill?
ricebowl	2013-03-13 01:11
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/barbarian/active/war-cry It's the defensive shout that gives them resist and armor.
ricebowl	2013-03-13 01:23
Out of curiosity, has anything been discussed yet with regards to +health globe stacking?  I'm personally on the fence about being able to stack health globe healing since it can give a tremendous advantage, especially in mirror matches.  I realize it's not too much different from health stacking as a whole but it's extremely efficient for boosting EHP for fights where you can kite around. Anyone else have any thoughts?
predsr	2013-03-13 01:24
The whole reason a DH uses a companion is to eat the Stormshield thing, the prievious rules was not allowed 'boar', but then you could use wolf etc and it would pretty much do the same thing
predsr	2013-03-13 01:25
I dont think nothings wrong with this for the time being, your probably gonna have a hard time finding your perfect gear with the stats at the sacrifice of another very usefull roll
GREEN2172	2013-03-13 01:35
A few quiestions: 1. "Actively using this island will result in loss of rounds and/or the complete match." - if 1 player run to island, and run back it's allowed? If player stay there to reset CD and hide from opponent - it's allowed? [b]"Actively"[/b] means that players just cannot camp there or go there at all? 2. "We expect the duels to be active combat. Repeatingly avoiding the duel will result in a loss." - if I buy legacy nat, attack from impale and jump->jump->jump and always in 60 minutes I will hold 30-40 meters range from opponent - is this "Avoiding fight"? If yes: what will you do with hit&run barbs playing like this? 3. "Vanishing Dye is not allowed." - any explanation for this rule? This rule should be only for Monks, because other players don't know if they use immortality or no, but why on all classes? Really need I to wear this ugly natalya helmet?:D 4. "The winner of the duel must stay in screen from opponent once won." - I have no idea what that means, explanations pls:( 5. "In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” and the “Wizard” the skill “War cry” is not allowed to be used." - currently no non-legacy DH can kill good barb, I'm not sure if this rule will help with balance, but we gonna test it on tournament. In your tests ANY non-legacy DH killed barb? Maybe this nerf + ban swapping gear will help. I wrote many posts in 1.2 thread about differences in legacy and non-legacy DH vs Barbs, but now I see that you didn't make anything with it. You said that you don't want to force ppl to change items, but without different rules for legacy and non-legacy set all non-legacy DH must regear ;/ 6. "In duels versus the “Monk” the skill “Impale” with rune “Chemical Burn” is not allowed." - not sure about this rule. If Monk use his companion we must go close to him and he can kill us. Without Chemical Burn it will be impossible to kill Monk in 1 rush, so again non-legacy DH are affected because they don't have dyscypline to make more then 2-3 rushes on Monk at close range, but legacy DH can all time attack->if dodge run->attack again. Non-legacy DH don't have this possibility. 7. "In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Companion” is not allowed." - again I'm not sure about this rule: without companion I cannot rush enemy because they hit by 130-150k dmg from storm armor, so this rule will result in wearing max ress and shooting from long distance, and AGAIN non-legacy DH are affected - because we cannot rush duels will take longer but we don't have enough dyscypline to defend from storm armor all the time and legacy can jump and use SS whole duel. [b]In general: you made a lot of good work guys, really! As a d3cl player I appreciate it.[/b] Just please consider 2 different DH playstyles with legacy and non-legacy sets. tl;dr from this playstyles: non-legacy have more DPS and EHP and he win if he kill opponent in short time, before his dyscypline will end. Legacy DH have less DPS and EHP but they can fight a lot of time, they can kite, dodge, attack many times. In some matches this 2 sets make a lot of difference. My proposition: 1. DH vs Monk: a) legacy DH vs Monk - legacy DH have less DPS and EHP, but they can attack and run many times. They must hold long distance all they time, so skill "Companion" in Monk (to allow a DH attack from a distance) and "Chemical Burn" in DH should be not allowed. b) non-legacy DH vs Monk - non-legacy DH can rush Monk 2-3 times before end of dyscypline. Banning our only one good dota will results with BIG nerf of non-legacy DH, we will be unable to kill Monk before our dyscypline will end. All skill allowed here (Companion because good Monk will hide behind Companion from DH shots from long distance, and if DH is close he must have chemical burn to have any chance to kill monk in this 1-2 rushes). I played only a few duels with legacy set, so legacy DH please explain if I'm wrong here. 2. DH vs barbs: a) legacy DH vs barb - can kite and shoot from distance all the time. b) non-legacy DH vs barb - cannot kite and shoot from distance all the time, but his hits are stronger. Making only 1 rule for DH vs barb will result in: - facilitate the fight for legacy DH, - MAYBE non-legacy DH will be able to kill barb. This duel is the most important in defferences between legacy and non-legacy DH, because fightning with barb requires continuous kiting. If barb will survive 2/3/4 rushes on non-legacy DH he have 100% win because our dyscypline end. In matchup with non-legacy DH barb must be nerfed more, but I have no idea how, banning sprint or inspiring presence is impossible, but I'm sure that we must do something with this duel. 3. DH vs Wizz: - legacy nat can't use Companion - they can attack from distane and run from storm armor range all the time. - non-legacy DH can use Companion (maybe without rune "Boar" - other companions are more easy to kill and this skill have 30s cd, so Wizz can rush us after killing companion in 30s) - non-legacy DH will be out of dyscypline after 1-2 rushes and wizzards are masters in running with illusion and other skills, so we must have companion to have possibility to rush wizzards. I hope that dev team will consider DH playstyles with different sets after tournament, because[b] as you said you don't want to force ppl to regear[/b].
jointit	2013-03-13 01:50
1. Actively means to go there on purpose. If you land on the island through a leap / charge / teleport or whatever miss click you might have made to get you there you have to immediatly get back. If it happens its not a loss of the duel, but if it happens again and again a judge needs to be called in for a ruling which may result in a 5-0. 2. If you know it - Think of the the MMA org UFC (or any combat sport for that matter) and their rule - this is basically the same. Rend and run is not avoiding combat, same goes with Shoot and vault. Run and run, and then some more run and maybe a leap to get away is to avoid combat. 3. gear swap detection 4. Prevent winner of duel to hide a potential gear swap. 5. get legacy nat if you cannot win or try find a way to win without it. May sound harsh but thats it. 3*40/15 ed/max in CCSoQ or 3*40/15 ias in CCSoE was only possible with 08 arreat. That costed a shitload, but hey thats how it goes. You could use the far worse ETH rune and the same is true here - you can use worse roll of legacy nats. I let someone else answer 6 and 7.
Lilith	2013-03-13 02:00
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/barbarian/active/war-cry It's the defensive shout that gives them resist and armor. [/quote] I know what is war cry, but i asked about battle cry becouse im not sure that is war cry or battle rage? @predrs Bat no eat strom shield, only generate hatered and bite wizz ass;p please fix rules becouse ban for bat is not fair for dh with cluster arrow. About health from potions and globes i agree with you. @green Legacy, no legacy... Going this way we should make rules for blackthorn users, bonus health from potion users, wd's mimic helm users, high dps users etc. Every one can buy any kind of item so whats your problem?
predsr	2013-03-13 02:30
@green Q7) Im taking those SS hits fine + i have a chance to dodge it, maybe your EHP might be too low? Im not sure about this 'rush' stategy your using vs wiz, explain it abit more to me legacy can kite and shoot from distance all the time vs barb, but if your trying to be totaly safe, the 'shoot' is hardly enought to do anything sometimes, simply because you cant get enough shots off, a good barb wont just tank+follow, they will hug walls/pillars and use good timed charges/leaps/pulls One of the main thing legacy allows you to do is kite almost forever without your disc pool getting low, while your trying to regen/wait for cd's, but even here a good barb can use smart tacts to try cut you off @lilith yea, i forgot they dont eat stormshield :P, im not sure why these runes would be banned, however im beating wiz fine without any pet skill
MysticaL	2013-03-13 02:41
Come on guys... witch doctors have no chance with these rules... lol so 0dog builds are banned too? this is so dumb I honestly don't even feel like typing my explanation out  ...
Iria	2013-03-13 02:51
Yeah all US WD gonna get destroyed by MysticaL and myself lol.
Lilith	2013-03-13 02:56
It's punishment for domination in eu d3cl;p
Blud	2013-03-13 03:02
I don't know which was your method for developing these rules, but there are some big problems here. Banning Zombie Dogs versus DH might be already too big of a nerf... Add the fact that we have to choose between SV and SW, and between horrify and hex, and there's nothing to do about it. Seriously, I appreciate what you do, but I think you guys haven't put too much thought into these particular rules. I might have a chance going full tank, but you'll force other WDs in the league to regear completely, something you stated it was "against your ideas." You are balancing duels so an average-low DH can kill a top WD. With these rules, any DH with sharpshooter and good use of mouse and environment will be able to 1shot WDs so fast you guys won't have enough time to modify rules XD. Listen to Mystical if you don't listen to me. Besides, do not forget that spirit vessel is not only 2nd life, it's also a 15% reduction of the spirit walk, horrify, etc. cool downs. These skills are core to WD, the whole mechanics of the class are broken without them. It's like banning SS for DHs. I agree that some adjustments had to be made for the sake of the league, but I don't know.. I think this will nerf to the ground 99% of the WDs. We'll see in the test league. I know a bit about WD, and our skill choices are very very limited. We have some amazing skills but most of the rest are complete crap, at least when you compare them to DHs or Barbs. WD vs Monk. Some balance was definitely needed, but this is too much. The problem is: you haven't listened to our feedback thoroughly. You didn't consider banning Haunt versus Monks? Atm any skilled monk using a 2hander or sick 1h dps will kill WDs so easily. Most WDs relied on the use of spirit walk and then spirit vessel to beat Monks. Without the second one it will be a 1shot fest. Time will prove me right :).
MysticaL	2013-03-13 03:22
It's punishment for domination in eu d3cl;p [/quote] This is dumb, just because a class is winning after ONLY 1 month of dueling, instead of letting players experiment and try stuff out, the CORE skills of each class are getting "league nerfed." From my perspective, these rules are nothing but "QQ my class X can't win vs class Y, therefore instead of trying to figure out new builds & gear setups, my opponent's core skills need to be removed" I can't wait to finish my DH on EU, I'm really looking forward to fighting you non-warcry barbs and dog-less WDs LOL! jokes aside though, I think it's a bit too unfair lol I'm not trolling either, because I don't have any suggestions myself - I think it's best to give the players a chance to figure things out on their own...
Blud	2013-03-13 03:33
I totally agree with you. This is a nerf fest, removing core skills and skills that weren't even OP in many cases. Really disappointed after spending so many hours testing and posting suggestions to see that they have been completely neglected. You shouldn't be touching a class's mechanics. Just adjustments. What about Zero-dog WD?
link1313	2013-03-13 04:39
no war cry vs dhs? *shudders*
verccety	2013-03-13 06:01
[quote] In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” and the “Wizard” the skill “War cry” is not allowed to be used.[/quote] And now they will start using Threatening Shout instead of WC...
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-13 06:21
Oo strange rules for barb not? If i cant use wotb and blud can use hex its ....? If i cant use Warcry vs Kaio he kills my 210 k life 12 mio ehp barb with 1 Blizzard. No Warcry means cut absorb from 98% to 93% so ~ 300% inc dmg.
GREEN2172	2013-03-13 09:06
You know as good as me that dyscypline is thing that gives us survavibility, dysc pool and dysc regen are far better then pumping hp/ress and if 1 set have 3x more dysc regen it gives a big advantage, any blackthorn users or bonuses in items like bonus health don't make such a difference. My problem is that most of DH with non-legacy set are forced to buy removed from game drop items. If you didn't played in league with non-legacy set you just don't understand problems with new set. I would not have any problems if dev team say "we made this rules and if you need to buy some gear go&buy or f*ck off", but if they said that they don't want to force ppl to regear and after that they force me to search for items removed from game so...i'ts simply unfair. And it's not only about legacy set - every item I buy or craft is used to have some HP/ress/DPS balance. With legacy nat I must change almost all items to set new hp/ress/dps balance, and as you know this gonna be expensive.
mirek	2013-03-13 10:14
[i] In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor is not allowed to use  “Summon Zombie Dogs” or “Gargantuan”.[/i] i'm poor in english. Zombie Dogs AND Gargantuan? can't use both? Or choose one from above? also : i agree with blud - spirit vessel is reduction of WD cooldowns on most usefull skills not only "second life"... and WD vs 2H bell monks will be one-sided now
Mr.Mag	2013-03-13 10:20
now (following mathematical logic) it means you can choose one of them but i guess it was not intended and should be changed. Rogh? Spirals?
KNHO	2013-03-13 11:31
[u][color=red]DH vs Wizzard[/color][/u] Without "Battle scars", and "Boar", this fight will be in favour of the Wizzards now. I guess it will be hart to play offensive as a DH vs good Wizzards with this rules. It will end in a endless sniping party from far away, and camping around with life regeneration after each hit. In my opinion, taking away one of those 2 would be enough. I have some thoughts about [u][color=red]DH vs DH[/color] [/u] too. What if we ban from this duel "Chemical burn", and "Smokescreen"? It could be much more intresting then, because it will only depend on movement, sniping, kiting. You got to play much more with tactics then, like Amazon vs Amazon in D2. I think the smokescreen spamming nowadays, just takes out a bit fun and colour of this matchup. Also the problem with legacy, non legacy, BT gear setups would be solved. Any thoughts bout it?
predsr	2013-03-13 12:18
I think DH vs DH is fine for the moment (even vs legacy).  I played alot of legacy + non legacy, and whats deciding the wins atm is the aiming of imaple (so people are just terribad at aiming), and using other skills to show where the DH exactly is even if the are smoke screened', such as cluster arrow>shooting stars + hungering arrow <- you need to use this if a DH is Smokescreened, ive only seen 2 DH's use it for that purpose I think too many DH using a standard build atm and not trying out new stuff, but mostly DH vs DH is all tactics imo
kaio	2013-03-13 13:07
We tested alot wiz vs dh and I tested vs many different kind of players and they can tell u that it's pretty ballanced for what we could see @Blud: I'd like Keen to answer you here with a post cose he is the wd in rule dev team
Lilith	2013-03-13 14:16
@KNHO U must understand that wizard lost all the time so we must give him some motivation to play in league:) Rules can be changed in 3rd seson. IMO better is 60-40 for wizzard  than 90-10 for dh.
predsr	2013-03-13 14:20
You know as good as me that dyscypline is thing that gives us survavibility, dysc pool and dysc regen are far better then pumping hp/ress and if 1 set have 3x more dysc regen it gives a big advantage, any blackthorn users or bonuses in items like bonus health don't make such a difference. My problem is that most of DH with non-legacy set are forced to buy removed from game drop items. If you didn't played in league with non-legacy set you just don't understand problems with new set. I would not have any problems if dev team say "we made this rules and if you need to buy some gear go&buy or f*ck off", but if they said that they don't want to force ppl to regear and after that they force me to search for items removed from game so...i'ts simply unfair. And it's not only about legacy set - every item I buy or craft is used to have some HP/ress/DPS balance. With legacy nat I must change almost all items to set new hp/ress/dps balance, and as you know this gonna be expensive. [/quote] I dont understand what your exactly saying about balance in offgear? whatever set your using, legacy or non legacy, all your offset gear affixs will be the exact same regardless of which set you use, unless im missing something?
GREEN2172	2013-03-13 14:36
Ye you miss something. For example: in DH vs DH fights my offgear is made to survive 1 impale crit. If I change to legacy set I have not enough HP to survive impale crit, so all HP items are useless and I must pump DPS to 1hit opponent first or pump HP to survive 1 impale crit in cost of DPS etc. Changing set to legacy will result in regear whole eq, except Manti and offhand.
Lilith	2013-03-13 14:49
Ye you miss something. For example: in DH vs DH fights my offgear is made to survive 1 impale crit. If I change to legacy set I have not enough HP to survive impale crit, so all HP items are useless and I must pump DPS to 1hit opponent first or pump HP to survive 1 impale crit in cost of DPS etc. Changing set to legacy will result in regear whole eq, except Manti and offhand. [/quote] New natalya and 70-80dysc can easy kill legacy if u know how to do it:)
GREEN2172	2013-03-13 14:53
Never said it's imossible:)
RoGH	2013-03-13 15:02
The main reason for Wizard rules is to encourage ppl to play that class on D3CL. I dont know why some of you are so strongly whining. Those rules arent permanent. We still might do some changes before ladder season #2 and even if not before the season, there always gonna be more seasons and tournaments. If wds will be nerfed too much and wizards buffed too much, we always can do some adjustments. Right now we have huge number of wds and barbs and very low number of wizards, not many monks too. We will never be able to make a perfect balance with number of each class and balance in a duel between them, but we felt that something needs to be done. For example latest results show how easly many barbs are killing dh's even if they are out-gearing them very much. Its quite easy to build a barb able to kill much more expensive dh, because Blackthorn set is quite cheap, so is stromshield with vita/life&, litany, bracers, shoulders and amu are now easy to craft. You still need to spend some gold on weapon or rare ring for example, but those are not billions. Right now im still wondering if we should allow Wd use zombie dogs vs DH, because he already has some nerfs. And btw, its very hard to run some tests with Wiz, because Kaio is the only one interested in doing that and he is also one of the best equipped in europe, so if you are struggling with him even now, doesnt mean that all nicely-equipped wizards will kick your ass, chill.
KNHO	2013-03-13 15:21
Nobody is whining  :o I dont have any problems @the moment with Wizzards. This is my opinion and feeling about the new rules. And as the people said here a few times before, make the rules depending on the best players, didn´t they? So i see it realy hard coming vs Kaio without Boar and Battle scars. <-----If you see my thoughts as a strongly whining, you got a loss of reality. Now let´s go on with flaming each other all together, it helps to develop rules! @Lilith, you´re 100% right. The next season will show us how it works.
jinshin85	2013-03-13 15:40
Nice rules. I like them. Season 2! Come!
MoKKaL	2013-03-13 15:53
Are u sure with that statement? :) I even wrote Mr.Mag that i want to test. So count me in, if u need another wizz for testing stuff out.
Mr.Mag	2013-03-13 15:58
i looks like i've forgot about it ;/
predsr	2013-03-13 16:06
Ye you miss something. For example: in DH vs DH fights my offgear is made to survive 1 impale crit. If I change to legacy set I have not enough HP to survive impale crit, so all HP items are useless and I must pump DPS to 1hit opponent first or pump HP to survive 1 impale crit in cost of DPS etc. Changing set to legacy will result in regear whole eq, except Manti and offhand. [/quote] My gear is aimed to do both, if I can do it, surely you can too, If you say that changing to legacy and all your items are useless, then this means your offgear wasnt all that good in the first place and you just need to gear up more
N0F3aR	2013-03-13 17:17
Barbs are not allowed to use WotB against WD, but they are allowed to use Hex Against Barbs. Sorry, but this is stupid. Barbs are using WotB becous WD using hex. Now WD gonna totaly rape barbs. Thank you. I will not accept single challenge from WD. And if you give me free lose, i will leave the league.
RoGH	2013-03-13 17:44
This is what i mean whining: Wd has other nerfs, you probably even havent been duelling vs wd this way, but its always better to cry in advance, doesnt it? We will run test league, which will last for few days and see how these rules are working, if we will see some heavy imbalance (for example too strong wd vs barb, too strong monk or dh vs wd or w/e) we will work it out.
franq	2013-03-13 17:47
And again: GREEN2172 is the ONLY guy crying about legacy nats allllllll day long in every damn topic... dude... buy legacy nats to be fine with duels or buy good new nats... YOU DO NOT HAVE ONE OF THEM so stop complaining about legacy nats and duel ppl that are geared at YOUR LEVEL. then you may have a chance to win! its not about legacy nats its about you being not able to duel proper geared guys. i duel with my new legacy nats barbs even better because i need only 4-5 hits to kill them instead of 8-10 and with the high reg of barbs duels with legacy take for EVER because of the low dmg. and btw: with legacy i do more dmg then you without legacy so ITS FOR SURE then u think its op because u lose to better geared guys then u r! omg stop crying like a little kid in every topic... sorry for my words but i cant read it anymore.. u r the only guy doing this. New nats with more ehp and more dmg with high discpool (70 +) its easier to survive alot of things mostly dots from wds. and you dont take forever to kill high ehpguys and stuff... just think about it.. u r bringing the same arguments over and over and many ppl told you its different then u think. its not meant offending against you but u dont have high end gear, but you want to duel high end ppl. old nats is expensive. a good new nats is even more expensive. let every1 do their own choice what do play and stop this oldnatsban spam.
VimeR	2013-03-13 17:58
The Barbarian cannot use the skill “Wrath of the Berserker” versus the Witch-Doctor, then hex isn't needed. Otherwise chance with high end gear wd/barb will look 75/25 :)
RoGH	2013-03-13 18:02
Even without spirit vessel and horrify?
Lilith	2013-03-13 18:08
I was testing new rules with Keen and it's ok imo. I lost about 70-65% of duels, but finally not 100% lose :)
kaio	2013-03-13 18:15
And u propose urself as a jud?
Ryba	2013-03-13 18:52
Good job gents, I'm up for new league session. btw, my eyes are bleeding when I hear green's whine about 'different rules for legacy and non-legacy blablabla'. Dude, rules are firm, cut the shit mate /or eveltualy buy 03 nat set/.
GREEN2172	2013-03-13 19:06
@franq: If you read my posts so closely you know that I wrote about NOT banning old nat, but making different rules:) If new nat is so good, prO etc. as you said, why the hell you're using old?^^ I can argue with you all day, but I do not want to spam forum, then I will short my message to: everybody can give their feedback, so f*ck off from me:)
jointit	2013-03-13 19:09
You saw my answer on page 2. Different rules wont happen. Sometimes you will need Leg.Nat and then you use that gear, sometimes you will not and then you use something else. It will be a choice of eq-strategy and there will not be any 2 separete rules for non legacy nats and legacy nats. Rules will be complicated enough even when trying to implement the smallest change, and personally I also think its simply a bad idea to do this distinction.
GREEN2172	2013-03-13 19:18
Yes I saw your answer, that's why I know it senseless to continue this discussion:) It's just funny when legacy nat users attack me personally and try to prove that they don't have advantage when they have:) They didn't played in league with new nat, but they are sure there is no difference^^ And franq - played 2 matches and he try to convince me that I'm wrong. I create a good feedback on 1st page, and that's all. This post is only answer to their panic defense of legacy set:)
N0F3aR	2013-03-13 19:19
And u propose urself as a jud? [/quote] Yes i do, but this is change i do not agree. Barbs got nurfed pretty enough against DH and Wizards. We lose 20% armor and 20% resist - like 6,7 -10 % dmg reduction. That means if you crit for 1 mil, ill take like 50-100k more dmg. And that is a lot. Im not whining, but i wont have no fun duels. And the main problem vs WD is that im hexed like 9 sec with cd of 15 sec. And Vimer is right. Similar geared Barb and Wd now % chance of winning is again in favor of WD. Barbs use WotB cuz WDs use hex. Now i have tested the new rulz against Wizard. I think banning war cry is not correct here as well. He can kill me now like 3 times easier. But gonna play more vs wizard for final words.   I see you work for that balance and i admire this, but wont play unbalanced and funless fights.
Duri	2013-03-13 19:20
If that was supposed to be a nerf vs item swap during the fight, You've acidently nerfed a really big thing for monk aspecially in duels vs DH where from my experience 50% of victories comes from impale reflect...
jointit	2013-03-13 19:43
Yeah dont worry about it bro, these forums are here for discussion :)
Lilith	2013-03-13 19:54
So if legacy is imba why in top 20 are only 2 legacy hunters? You, Captain and McP are higher in ranking than predsr(17), and I on 10place with many lucky wins^^
Iria	2013-03-13 19:59
Here are my proposed changes for some of the rules: 1) Regarding Vanishing Dye, if both players agree, then it should be allowed (I don't want to have to redye my gear just for dueling and I'm sure most other players don't care). 2) DH vs WD: Currently, the DH will have no trouble utterly crushing any WD with these rules. I propose the WD can only choose two of the three: Zombie Dogs, Spirit Walk, Spirit Vessel. 3) DH vs Wiz: I recently played a good Wizard and he can kill me in 3 crit thunder bolts, and not to mention his other skills that hurt a lot. Also, his EHP was high enough that it took 3-4 hits total to kill him with Force Armor. I propose DH can only use either Battle Scars OR Companion, but not both. 4) DH vs Monk: I think the proposed change is ok but I fear for the 90% stacked dodge Monks. All other classes will have an attack which bypasses dodge (Rend, Haunt, Exploding Palm, Ray of Frost/Blizzard/...) so they won't have this problem. I think it will basically become a duel of RNG with the Monk to land your attack. Are there other solutions, such as banning Sharpshooter?
GREEN2172	2013-03-13 20:02
Never said it's imba:) Just said it give advantage in some matchups, like DH vs Barb. The good feedback to dev team from legacy nats should look like this: I said that legacy is better against barbs because you can kite all the time, and you give arguments why am I wrong + proof, for example "new nat is better if you use this tactics: (...), I know that player (...) use it with his eq and he kill easily barbs with new nat" - next we should make test if its true and after that both sides would be happy. Now it's not like this: I played many matches with new nat and just give arguments to prove that I am right, and legacy nats (except pred) don't give any feedback, just troll and attack personally me, like franq:) If you think changes proposed by me are unnecessary give your feedback with arguments, not troll all the time to defend your gear.
MysticaL	2013-03-13 20:21
ok, I didn't want to make a post like this, but here is why I think the nerfs vs. DH are a mistake (but I also think nerfing any matchup is a mistake): I have a DH vs. WD video of a #16 world PvP dummy WD (the point is not the dummy rank, the point is he's geared). I won 8-4, zdogs not so OP afterall I guess?? youtube.com/watch?v=_KknzG8rosE There is a new & interesting spec you can use vs. WDs that use zombie dogs: youtube.com/watch?v=r5igxZo4CmI I tried the spec above yesterday vs. an even more geared WD than Pillz (top 10 dummy), and it definitely works BETTER vs. zombie dogs than my old fan of knives build Let's also keep in mind there are TONS of DH better geared than I am... so I really don't understand... And legacy sets are unaffordable? Seriously? When I first made my char on EU, I bought one in EU comparable to my US set, and I found good prices in less than 2 days. EVEN CHEAPER than US, these are just excuses, come on... You don't need a 2 bil legacy set to perform well, my EU set cost me total <200mil, and the main difference between MY EU Legacy and my US legacy is 3% helm crit... plus I got useful stats instead of the 3% crit anyway :/ Seriously what's going on in EU? I know you guys give MannerCookie a lot of crap for saying that, but I think we need to figure out why the class balances are so different in US servers vs. EU servers Is there someone who posts videos of their duels in EU? I would really like to see some
RoGH	2013-03-13 20:24
Pvp dummy, seriously?
MysticaL	2013-03-13 20:37
the point is not the dummy rank, the point is he's geared enough to compete vs. any DH out there
GREEN2172	2013-03-13 20:38
@Mystical: nice idea with spike traps:) As you said: [quote]and the main difference between MY EU Legacy and my US legacy is 3% helm crit[/quote] Please make a movie how you kill keen&blud with this and that will be end of discussing about EU/US WD and EU/US WD nerf.
MysticaL	2013-03-13 20:43
Please make a movie how you kill keen&blud with this and that will be end of discussing about EU/US WD and EU/US WD nerf. [/quote] I'm gearing up & lvling my DH on EU, for sure I want to challenge everyone here
Lilith	2013-03-13 20:46
Please make a movie how you kill keen&blud with this and that will be end of discussing about EU/US WD and EU/US WD nerf. [/quote] +1 One more thing about WD. They should be allowed to use dogs if he have homunculus in off hand.
Forti	2013-03-13 21:00
I think it would be good compromise for start.
jointit	2013-03-13 21:02
Please make a movie how you kill keen&blud with this and that will be end of discussing about EU/US WD and EU/US WD nerf. [/quote] I'm gearing up & lvling my DH on EU, for sure I want to challenge everyone here [/quote] I like your attitude man, hope you can get mannercookie here too. :)
ricebowl	2013-03-13 21:08
Rofl, I guess you don't see the irony here.  When was the last time you actually got hit by exploding palm as a DH?  That move is slow, has no range, has a long cast time, and costs a ton of spirit.  PS: It's already a duel of RNG when a Monk fights a DH.  For the Monk.  Dodge SSS?  DH wins.  Dodge blind?  DH wins.  Dodge 2 full bell hits?  DH wins.  Get real.
Iria	2013-03-13 21:39
I said the proposed change was ok, but there are monks out there that have 90% dodge chance or something ridiculous. It seems kind of stupid to duel them if the whole game is luck and no skill, I can go to a casino for that lol. If the monks are capped to no more than 70% buffed dodge chance, then I think the rules could work. Edit: And in case you don't know what I'm talking about: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7978878101
jinshin85	2013-03-13 21:52
LOL @ that 100% dodge monk. Iria, are you serious man? I don't mind capping the dodge at 70% and taking away the chemical burn.
Blud	2013-03-13 21:59
I totally agree with you, and after seeing your video I must say that most dhs in this league do not know how to play vs wd. I really look forward to dueling you, Blud#2481. That said, that WD is very bad. He doesn't predict your movements at all, and he eats your fan of knives all the time.
Iria	2013-03-13 22:47
That 100% dodge monk happens to be in the US league! If we impose a ban on chemical burn, I would like to impose a limit to dodge chance vs DH to not exceed 70% or another reasonable number (this can be calculated before the match based on Dexterity and skills).
McP	2013-03-14 01:14
2on2 is very good playable and fun. Watch this 2on2 practice match McP+SIN http://www.d3cl.com/en/news/view/161/diablo3-ruleversion-125.htm
N0F3aR	2013-03-14 01:43
Let me suggest something:     - After season 1 ends, stop official league for short period and start Test league with the new rulz.     - See what is going on and take good feedback. Gl
franq	2013-03-14 07:01
if legacy is so pro why the hell r u using new? same question u ask me. another thing: i tried both nats.. new and old with good stats. so i can say new nats is even better some times. and yes i consider using it in some duels, too! the problem with u is: u did not try old nats! and u actually can tell NOTHING about playing with it but u keep saying there is advantage here is advantate in some matchups. how can u do that if u dont even play it? its hard enough to kill high ehp barb with low dmg u just never tried it. another thing: barbs on YOUR GEAR LEVEL should be easy enough to deal with. if u want to duel the top barbs get high end eq and stop saying u cant win without legacy nats if u dont have this endgame eq the barbs use... u cant win vs overgeared champs if u self are not. and yes i have 2 duels in d3cl but i dueleD ALOT alot more ppl before registering here, also some guys that already dueled here.
Mr.Mag	2013-03-14 08:11
it seems that we resign from the tournament for the best players and do test as a league as you have written above. we plan to do it for 5 days and signups will be for everyone, not only top 32.
GREEN2172	2013-03-14 08:58
@franq: again you didnt readed closely: I have old nat from +- half of the league, but the cheapest on AH. Yesterday I bought cheap old nat, for 60-70kk, and for the fuck sake stop talking it didnt give and advantage - last time with my better new nat Uzjel (legacy nat) won with me in training match maybe 20:4, yesterday with shitty old nat it was something like 15:15. Specially for you I will make a movie on weekend how is easy to kill non-legacy nat with legacy nat, because it's pathetic how you trying to prove that it is different than it is.
franq	2013-03-14 10:04
No, its Pathetic how you Act. Its made an Decission about This Rule Anyway Which was THe right One so nevermind. Most ppl reading this know u r wrong. U can do Ur Video but it will Proof nothing because it is YOUR playstyle and skill...  Other ppl Play other styles.. And sometimes u win and sometimes u lose. i can duel u with new and old nats and maybe u win when i use old and u lose va new... that can always happen aAnd The Top dhs in this League already said new nats can be superior. Just let everYOne use what he wants to. BTW: New nats with Good stats is Even more expansive Then Old nats with Good stats! Old nats only THe Helm is Really extensive! New nats all over Worth much more! Ofc Not such as u use... Like i Said u Must duel ppl with Same value of items! That to u Saying ppl get forced to buy Old nats..
GREEN2172	2013-03-14 10:38
Sorry for my emotional response this morning, I just woke up^^ I know after jointit posts that they will not do anything with DH rules, the only problem here is that you persuade me that I'm wrong without giving examples and evidence. As I said before: [b]show me[/b] good DH with new natalya killing good barb in league (could be fight with Devil or Vimer) and this gonna be end of our discussion. Atm only legacy DH can take some frags in this matchup or win - for example Lilith or Pred (always 5:2-5:3 or win) and any non-legacy DH who can win with good barb. All legacy DH here don't want to admit that it gives an advantage, but on other forum: http://eu.battle.net/d3/pl/forum/topic/6690280438?page=5 you can read Lilith post, in english it says: "(...) from the moment they [Blizz] said about new natalya set I was firmly convinced that the old set will give a significant advantage in pvp and then I began to slowly gather items". Evidence, arguments, movies, no panic defense of your opinion or it will be EOT for me.
franq	2013-03-14 15:54
yesterday i watched mannercookies stream and he dueled a really well geared legacy dh that did not kill him 1 time! he had no chance because he had too low dmg. couple days agoa new nats user won vs mannercookie in long duels. as u can see there are many ways you can see it and i think its not enough duels and players so far to say something is op or not.
franq	2013-03-14 20:25
just dueled GREEN2172 and he won more matches then i did... and both of us used legacy nats... my gear is much better but he killed me more often.. that shows skill and timing in dh vs dh is much more important then items. he has just alot more practice in dh mirrormatches and wins with items much lower then i have. i think in dh vs dh it matters much about skill and timings and not much about items. new nats have less discregen but with and discpool over 70 and prep u should not run out of disc + u can tank more dmg so maybe tank 1 impale or sth... that needs 2 skillshots to kill u then. not sure about it. i think green recorded the stuff and will maybe upload also if it does not show much
Nightmare	2013-03-14 21:26
@franq I thought the point Green was trying to make was that Old Nats > New Nats despite skill level? If so then now you two have determined who is more skilled at the mirror DH match you should duel him with Legacy and him using the new Nats. If he still wins then it's not about new or old, skill trumps all. If you win significantly more now that he's switched to new Nats then the Legacy set oviously provides a significant advantage.
ricebowl	2013-03-14 22:05
Let me know when you actually lose a duel to the 80% dodge or w/e monk instead of losing in your head. PS: He has 0 spirit regen and 350 resist all.
GREEN2172	2013-03-14 22:32
I will post movie later, franq was fightning in legacy set, because he didn't want to wear new set. I was fightning later with McP with his good new nat and it was aligned fight - I losed but I scored some points, with my new nat I always losed with McP 0-5, with shitty legacy it was something like 8-12, but this works only if he use strafe build (I mean if he use normal impale build I winned, but with strafe build and with my shitty legacy i have 58k hp and 300-400 ress) and PROBABLY legacy DH with better set (more EHP) will win anyway. On the end I was fightning with Captain, with his end game new set, and I must say that this guy is so fuckin skilled - he even didn't need to use strafe, he aim very well from impale. It was maybe 2-7 or 2-8, but again: with shitty legacy set I scored some points, and with my new nat (worth 3x more then my legacy set) I always losed 0:5. Conclusion: shitty legacy set >> shitty new set shitty legacy set > average new set shitty legacy set = good new set shitty legacy set < end game new set. average/good legacy set(Lilith set) = end game new set (from scores from Lilith fights with Captain and McP) end game legacy set (who have one? I will buy:D) > end game new set (probably).
GREEN2172	2013-03-15 01:55
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI74wE0LZZQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI74wE0LZZQ[/url] 0->6:44 franq, 6:45->end McP
Euronymous	2013-03-15 02:13
Thanks for the video, great news for DH. You can save money and buy a cheap legacy nats instead of your overpriced new nats and let the individual skill decide the match.
GREEN2172	2013-03-15 02:21
Not that great news - it gonna be more and more ppl who want to play PvP, and when I bought this set it was only 2 not full pages on AH with helmet with socket, so it will just end soon. Legacy nat rings with cd or cc are 1-2 units on AH, armors with +10 dyscy too. If we don't make different rules now we will have to do it in future, because many of new DH players in league gonna see that legacy nat is "Must have" and they will write here as I wrote before 1.2.5 rules.
Lilith	2013-03-15 02:56
Not that great news - it gonna be more and more ppl who want to play PvP, and when I bought this set it was only 2 not full pages on AH with helmet with socket, so it will just end soon. Legacy nat rings with cd or cc are 1-2 units on AH, armors with +10 dyscy too. If we don't make different rules now we will have to do it in future, because many of new DH players in league gonna see that legacy nat is "Must have" and they will write here as I wrote before 1.2.5 rules. [/quote] Try to kill emmet with legacy:) I'm losing with him all the time^^
franq	2013-03-15 07:13
Not that great news - it gonna be more and more ppl who want to play PvP, and when I bought this set it was only 2 not full pages on AH with helmet with socket, so it will just end soon. Legacy nat rings with cd or cc are 1-2 units on AH, armors with +10 dyscy too. If we don't make different rules now we will have to do it in future, because many of new DH players in league gonna see that legacy nat is "Must have" and they will write here as I wrote before 1.2.5 rules. [/quote] your test actually say not much in my opinion. but nvm. you can never say just from 1 or 2 duels that a specific set is superior to the other set. like i said it needs MONTHS of testing in usual league to see if legacy or non legacy users are in front! not just some duels of someone that DOES WANT LEGACY to be banned. not like testing some duel with shitty old and shitty new nats vs different players.... THAT IS SNAPSHOT OF DAYSKILL, thats it. we all know u cant afford good old nats or good new nats and thats why u want to ban one opinion of it so u maybe someday can get a good set of one of it. and btw: old nats with cc = only LOW LOW LOW more dmg then without cc on helmet. so u cant say really old nats bad is much worse then old nats good.  stats cannot varie alot in old nats set.... 4cc = maybe 14kdmg with ur items, thats not gamechanging! and there is only 1 ring in eu with cc + cd.... rest have either cd or cc not both. there will be no rule for old and new nats because u still cannot force any1 to buy different items to play in the league. ppl that have new play new, ppl that have old play old. old nats players arent forced to buy new one. new nats players arent forced to buy old one... AND NO THEY ARE NOT FORCED BECAUSE ITS BETTER only because u feel it is!
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-15 08:20
- maybe the Warcry-ban should be specified only for shield-barbs? - if you use shield/tank setup you can compensate the nerf but all 2-hander setups are broken because you kill the defensive potential directly
Nightmare	2013-03-15 08:53
I was looking at your gear and mystical's gear because you two seem like the top US DHs in US server but did you know your Manticore is a duped item? Shows there's over 15 players with the same one on diabloprogress. Buying duped items is lame and spits in the face of people who legitly bought their items. You shouldn't even be able to duel with that Manticore. You're supporting something that is ruining the game. sell it bro. http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/26229266 There's no way you don't know that it's duped. If you didn't know it when u bought it then you know now. Even Mannercookie immediately sold an item he bought when he found out it was a duped it. Duping is messing this game up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y912LitPOd8
Iria	2013-03-15 09:06
They should stop the dupers. It is not the fault of the AH buyer that an item is duped. I paid good money for it, $200.00 USD Battlenet currency (I sold a lot of items to earn it). I don't see how this is the fault of the current owner and not the person who actively cheated to dupe the item.
KNHO	2013-03-15 09:14
@ Nightmare Why the fuck you come up with such trash issues in this topic? Who cares? You want to be the item and anti-dupe officer for d3cl? Instead of trying to shit on someone, go and do something usefull for school.
Nightmare	2013-03-15 09:25
HAHAHA do you not know how to spell useful? GO TO SCHOOL. Shut the fuck up and get educated.
predsr	2013-03-15 09:32
Now now children
RadL	2013-03-15 10:47
+1 for sure, but I don't know if a 2-hander build was ever viable in dh vs barb. Other than that, as some people mentioned before hex cant stay against barbs. Barbs are perma sheep and the only way to cancel it is WOTB. Thats why many of us used WOTB in the first place, and hex is what ruins this match up. I am not afraid that it will stay this way because it is such a nonsense, but man can I trust the rest of the restrictions after this?
GREEN2172	2013-03-15 11:56
[img]http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3500/captainw.png[/img] ...or maybe other new nat users are smarter then me and don't want to argue with legacy nat players?;) Take today your new set and fight with me, you will feel the same way like me, after that take your new set and fight with some barb from top20, come here and post results - as you said new nat is not worse so it will be not a problem?:) Atm this is just an academic discussion, because, as the judges have posted this problem will not be solved this season.
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-15 13:31
@ radlob, i play 2 hand vs dh or at least i found a way to do so... worked very well vs predsr, lilith, emmett, captain and mcp and will never work again without warcry. If you ban warcry i will use my tankgear + overpower. Defensive shout i use always vs dh so its not done to swich warcry with that. And 1 thing i have also to say about gear... at the moment i´m crafting all my freetime to get my 230 k life gear only to stand against Sin, Duri and Thomas and sometimes Kaios Onehitarchonoverkill. A whole new setup just against 4 Players that can deliver 25 mio dmg in 15 sec. I´m working on a specific gear vs each variation of the different builds on each class. So dont come up with "legacy or not DH discussion" You have to have both setups anyway to be as flexible as u have to be. To say i need other rules i am legacy player is a bit too easy or not? If you think Tank barbs are overpowered specify your wished not just banning something... You can cap values on runspeed, ehp, lifereg but banning skills is not the solution. Even wotb is not overpowered just the 100% DPS rune is worth kiting 2 min to w8 for. I wish i could still use my Wotb + 60% dodge rune vs sin and to get out of the fucking hex - but cant any more :(
KNHO	2013-03-15 13:35
Nofear is for sure one of the best barbs vs DH in this league. Notice this guy is still undergeared when you look @ other top barbs. I bought a "OK" legacy set for testing and still have not much chances against him. Why i write this? My opinion is, that you got to play very very smart with both sets against good barbs. - Legacy gives you more defense/time (disc), less dmg/life, and allows to do a mistake . - New nats gives you more dmg/life, but allows no mistakes, because life doesn´t realy count here, coz if you´re out of disc, you are death. As a new nats user, you kill the barb fast if you do insane pressure and aim like god, or you die. So the point is, if you´re a machine that don´t make mistakes and doesn´t miss impales at all = New nats is very good! For normal humans it´s not the best in my eyes. My conclusion after few days testing is that the legacy Set is far the best choice vs WD and Barb. In all other setups, New nats is even.
Euronymous	2013-03-15 14:56
Dupes give players an unfair advantage over players that don't use dupes. Right now duping isn't that big of a problem, especially for pvp items. But more and more best-in-slot pvp items are bound to get duped. This forces players that want to be competitive to either buy the dupes or pay a large premium for legit items that offer no advantage at all and are often worse than the dupes. Dupes also affect the pvp balance a lot, it just takes a perfect duped BT set for barbarians or an insane spear to shift the powers between classes. The classes with the best dupes can get endgame items at midlevel prices where other classes might not get endgame items at all. In the end, everyone will depend on dupers and eventually use the same duped items. Dupers would love that for sure, a competitive scene that buys all the nice best-in-slot dupes they put out ;) Sure, it will be annoying to change your duped manticores to legit manticores, but it's for the sake of the league. You still indirectly profit from all the dupe manticores because they drive down the prices of legit manticores.
Iria	2013-03-15 18:03
I don't know how this topic derailed from PVP balance discussion to a duped item thread. I will state again: I purchased my Manticore with hard earned money; I can post a screenshot of the RMAH transaction if needed to prove that I did not dupe this item. Furthermore, the price of an item should be irrelevant to this discussion of PVP balance, if you cannot afford something, duped or not, then that is your problem, not the league's problem. It is absurd to change a lot of players' equipment "for the sake of the league". If you want to buy me a Manticore which provides me equal or greater DPS, I will gladly trade mine in exchange. Lastly, I wholeheartedly disagree with your "dupes also affect the pvp balance a lot"; I see no grounds for this. Now, to return to the actual topic, I have been seeing more discussion of legacy nats vs non-legacy nats in various threads and I would like to comment again on my opinion. I am one of the few successful non-legacy nat DH in the US league and I think the new set is fine in terms of balance. I have played the same players that MysticaL has and I never felt my matches were utterly hopeless. With regards to non-legacy vs legacy; at the top level of gear (around where MysticaL and I are), I think the legacy set does provide an advantage in that the legacy DH can simply force the non-legacy DH to waste discipline by excessively using smokescreen. This is the only match-up I currently feel is almost hopeless (I require more luck than anything to win).
Spirals	2013-03-15 18:09
2 things: 1/ Natalya's legacy discussion can be held in the discussion thread. 2/ Dupes are not a part of ruleversion 1.2.5.  Any such accusations don't belong here nor the discussion about them. If you want to adress this issue open a new topic. It ends here; back to 1.2.5
Leraye	2013-03-15 18:22
thoes rules are the most idiotic thing that have happend to pvp rules ever. you are banning everyone exept a wizzard that is a very good character that lose only a bit because dh's got preparation vs his unstable anomaly, barbs can tank their horrible storm armor dmg, wd's got minions to dodge his killing attacks. with this changes you have just buffed kaio hard. he will lose with dh's that will 2shot him. oh and btw you made monk immortal vs a dh. chemical burn is the only skill that does some dmg to that guy. every other attack can be easly dodge with 3300 dex and a bit of mantra. monks can oneshot dh's if they are not in ss mode. having that in mind happy duels with the new rules.
kaio	2013-03-15 19:15
Another no sense post with nothing useful to be read by sm1 that ofc not have read rules on posting U are the prototype of the weaknesses of the democracy
GREEN2172	2013-03-15 19:22
I'm against banning chemical burn too, but maybe we should wait to test league and see how monk vs dh matchups will look like? If all or most of DH will lose it means they must change it, if it will be balanced in equal gear so this was good decision. Just need to wait (and search for other skills vs monk:P)
RoGH	2013-03-15 19:32
I'm against banning chemical burn too, but maybe we should wait to test league and see how monk vs dh matchups will look like? If all or most of DH will lose it means they must change it, if it will be balanced in equal gear so this was good decision. Just need to wait (and search for other skills vs monk:P) [/quote] Couldnt agree more.
Iria	2013-03-15 19:38
I played against Kimsulki84, a decent monk with good experience yesterday and I was determined to win without Chemical Burn. The duels lasted a LOT longer and it played out almost like a DH vs Barb match. The monk retreats when his Serenity is down and I fire some Impale - Overpenetration at him but they wiff 70% of the time lol. Then the match resets and we try again, and again, and again until either A) I get lucky and hit him a couple times in a row or B) he gets lucky and catches me with his Wave of Light - Explosive Wave at an odd angle. I had the upper-hand but the monk got impatient and complained about long duels lol (I wonder what he would say if he saw DH vs Barb duels).
Iria	2013-03-15 20:10
LOL someone woke up on the wrong side this morning. I can score kills on Revrac, Cyon, and Mystical, so I don't think I'm that far from top. You can ask them directly for their opinions about me. Per Spiral's request, let's stop talking about duped items and keep the discussion constructive.
jointit	2013-03-15 21:24
Finally with pvp these forums are beginning to look like the good old days with some well spoken flaming going on. Just on this side alone I can read things such as "U are the prototype of the weaknesses of the democracy" and "Look it up in the dictionary and then look up average. You're welcome. I'm out". Only thing we´re missing now is some forum bans for bad behaviour and mysterious stories about how someone ripped someone else (with the flaming followed ofc). Ah, how I missed it.
Wittster	2013-03-15 21:52
Good post Iria. Sounds like the matchup got more balanced atleast. Explosive wave is absolutely horrible to use. It costs 30seconds worth of regenerating spirit with a balanced setup, is insanely hard to aim and if it gets dodged, it's all for nothing. I really wish Monks had other ways to kill a top dh.
ricebowl	2013-03-15 22:19
Good post Iria. Sounds like the matchup got more balanced atleast. Explosive wave is absolutely horrible to use. It costs 30seconds worth of regenerating spirit with a balanced setup, is insanely hard to aim and if it gets dodged, it's all for nothing. I really wish Monks had other ways to kill a top dh. [/quote] Oh, there are a few ways... ;)
link1313	2013-03-15 22:53
Good post Iria. Sounds like the matchup got more balanced atleast. Explosive wave is absolutely horrible to use. It costs 30seconds worth of regenerating spirit with a balanced setup, is insanely hard to aim and if it gets dodged, it's all for nothing. I really wish Monks had other ways to kill a top dh. [/quote] Oh, there are a few ways... ;) [/quote] 8)
Leraye	2013-03-16 02:24
Another no sense post with nothing useful to be read by sm1 that ofc not have read rules on posting U are the prototype of the weaknesses of the democracy [/quote] you really are so petty that you try these cheap talk tricks to downgrade me? kaio you are the most arogant [s]asshole[/s] [color=red]person[/color] i have met during over 60 duels in this league. you can smile on these changes because if wizz wont be restricted in anyway, then the league for wizzards will be like the water for fish. too bad every other class trying to duel a wizzard would look like an insane person jumping into the fire. anyway you lost 5:4, so I wont say that you were outclassed in any way. your wizzard has sic gear and you just got beaten up, by a person you were offending all the time, thats all. people like you who think they are somehow above the rest curse on democracy but the reality is that without it you would crawl somewhere in the bottom.
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-16 09:35
from my point of view its necessary to honor gameplay and skill and ban the i win buttons if barb is too strong i would ban some unfair runes nothing else.. especially +100% dmg @ wotb, 50% runspeed @ sprint and 17 yard range @ rend to ban complete skills, complete builds or just all 2-hander modes is not the way to go
RadL	2013-03-16 12:00
[quote] if wizz wont be restricted in anyway, then the league for wizzards will be like the water for fish. too bad every other class trying to duel a wizzard would look like an insane person jumping into the fire. [/quote] You fail to see that wizards so bad they dont even play league. There are 4 in the first 100. If anyone, they need some push. At the moment I only happy with this restriction wise.
jointit	2013-03-16 14:24
We are currently playing alot and also watching all video material there is to make the best rule decisions possible. Best being as little as possible. Taking away 17 yard rend is not gonna happen at all. Im not even sure that its the best rune to use once we get more skilled at this. In bvb 903% rend ha already taken over and Im leaning towards the same rune vs monks. Banning gear swapping and preventing counter building are huge game changers and alone put some balance into pvp. You play alot of pvp atm? If so, add me jointit#2392
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-17 00:33
17 yard rune ofc only vs dh - dont use it vs any other class
zbayno	2013-03-17 00:55
Hi there guys! First of all, great job with all this rules:) I play wizz and I am still interesting in playing league. I have bad feelings about Monk's Wave of light, but I have not tested rules yet. I really can't wait to do so. However, did you think about ban Skorn completely? I use Skorn at the moment, but I think this weapon gives huge advantage. I know it is cheap and everyone can buy it, but did you consider forbidding Skorn? E: If u need another wizz to test rules, feel free to ask me on BN, zbayno#2442
Iria	2013-03-17 01:14
As long as you don't ban my Mantiskorn.
Lilith	2013-03-17 01:44
I like when my opponent use Skorn, don't ban it guys, pls:P
Iria	2013-03-17 01:48
Yeah, I would ban shield over skorn if I could choose lol.
ricebowl	2013-03-17 02:30
Why would you ban skorn when every class can make use of it?  I don't understand.  What other 2-handers are there? And yes, as a wizard, wave of light is very powerful.  But it's literally the only tool we have against some other classes.
Iria	2013-03-17 03:09
Lost to rice with chem burn ban, I think we need to reconsider lol. I had little chance against him w/o it.
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-17 08:14
don´t think u liked my  2-hander style :P
zbayno	2013-03-17 11:49
It was just suggestion. When the skorn+rend or skorn+haunt got crit the round was over for me ;) Anyway, like I said earilier, I haven't tested rules yet so i don't have much to say about them :)
Lilith	2013-03-17 16:33
don´t think u liked my  2-hander style :P [/quote] But u don't use skorn, right?:P
Casino	2013-03-18 06:37
imo barb should be allowed to use warcry. I've seen what good Dh can do and they don't need that nerf to beat barbs. For hex i think it's fine the way it is. It's pretty easy to stay out of the minions range and with the changes to spirit vessel and horrify it might already be too much
KNHO	2013-03-18 08:56
Show me a DH who can beat Executioner or Vimer if everything stays as it is. I give 100 m, to the winner ingame! They fuck the DH´s even without warcry, with a smile on their face.
verccety	2013-03-18 09:12
Just forbid marathon rune. That's the fix.
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-18 12:04
won´t work ^^ Show me a DH who can beat Executioner or Vimer if everything stays as it is. I give 100 m, to the winner ingame! They fuck the DH´s even without warcry, with a smile on their face. [/quote] not in 2-handed mode any more without warcry; 1-hand + shild nothing changed just swich from warcry to overpower -35% reduce all for 4 sec
PhongKa	2013-03-18 14:54
[size=14pt][/size] These rules is really DUMB ! I play D3 PvP with other player WITHOUT rules !
Forti	2013-03-18 15:20
Can you write why you think so?
KatMPB	2013-03-18 15:36
whether the new rules as a player does not report to a duel on d3cl, the entry can not be that he wants to fight, and the opponent will be awarded a walkover? For the first edition was such that he was awarded, but then the judges withdrew from that. I would like to know the situation - honestly!
Mr.Mag	2013-03-18 16:12
i'm not sure if i understood your post correctly, but in the new season each player has to ask an opponent for a duel every day. only intrusive inquiries will be granted walkover if duel did not take place. also after some number of losts by w/o, a player is removed from the league. personally i dont like w/o. its not the right way to become number one ;)
Iria	2013-03-18 17:59
I think that is to cover the abuse currently of challenges just being cancelled. I challenged several opponents before, and they will come up with some excuse to just say they are collecting equipment or something to stall a few days. After a few days, the challenge just disappears and I can't re-challenge. Also, what rules will be in place if two players cannot agree on each others equipment before saying "okay"? An example of this would be a stunning build against a Barbarian, the Barbarian will see the build and set Juggernaut passive, the other player will see the Juggernaut passive and change to non-stunning skills. Then the Barbarian will see the non-stunning skills and switch to a non-Juggernaut passive, and then the other player sees that change and sets the stunning skills again, and around and around we go! Returning to DH specific rule discussion (I posted some similar opinions earlier but I will condense them here): Against Barbarians, I don't feel the War Cry ban fully justified but I do agree that playing hit and run to reset is annoying (for both the Barbarian and the DH). The Barbarian wins that scenario since they regenerate life and cooldowns faster than a DH regenerates life and discipline in general (non-legacy). Perhaps there can be other limitations to EHP aside from War Cry, because as noted by others, Barbarians will simply use Overpower - Crushing Advance instead now to a similar effect. Against Monks, I feel the Chemical Burn disables the DH offensive power by too much. My experience against good Monks is with Chemical Burn I win 80% of the time, without Chemical Burn I win 30% of the time; which is a huge difference. The reason is that the duels last considerably longer and I must not get hit for a longer period of time. Monks do such incredible damage with their Spirit spending skills now that, on critical hits, they can 1-shot almost any DH. DH also have no second chance ability, so 1-shot and it's over. Whereas Monks take 3-4 high powered critical hits to take down if they have the EHP (due to Serenity, Near Death Experience, and possibly potions if they stack bonus to heath globes and potions). Also, in general, Monks have higher dodge chance than DH and with our discipline limitations (non-legacy), we cannot win that war of attrition (especially if most hits are simply missing the Monk). I propose either a different change to DH such as Sharpshooter ban, or an additional restriction of Near Death Experience banned with Chemical Burn banned. Against WD, I feel this match up is slightly in favor of the WD (non-legacy DH), but is not so much that they need to lose both Summon Zombie Dogs AND either Spirit Vessel or Spirit Walk. I propose just Spirit Vessel or Spirit Walk be banned (at the choice of the WD), and leave the Zombie Dogs as is. Against Wizard, I do admit there needs to be some adjustment for the Wizard's benefit. I propose either Battle Scars or Companion be banned but not both. Banning both adds too much of a benefit to the Wizard since they also have Unstable Anomaly which grants them a second chance. Without a form of mitigating Storm Armor between Smokescreens, this duel will be to heavily in favor of high DPS Wizards (Ray of Frost for example tears through my 1.5M EHP DH in less than a second)! Against DH, nothing needs to be changed as both players can copy each others skills! Future rules can be made for legacy vs non-legacy however as this still is an open discussion. Again, my opinion on the fact is: if I (non-legacy DH) can 1-shot a legacy DH I will win since they can unlikely 1-shot me; however, if both players cannot 1-shot each other, I will likely lose due to the meta game being simply Smokescreen, Vault, and Impale and no other build stands a chance at higher equipment levels.
GREEN2172	2013-03-18 18:08
One most important question: Will you ban legacy set or no? I want to buy today or tommorow end-game legacy set and if I spend 2-3b and you will ban it after that it will be fuckin unfair. So please make decision: ban or no.
RoGH	2013-03-18 18:09
We have no intentions to do so.
GREEN2172	2013-03-18 18:16
Ty for answer.
Wittster	2013-03-18 19:24
I think you're being very loose with using those percentages there. My impression is that after the chemical burn u will still beat all non_rice monks 80% of the time, while maybe losing to him specifically 30-70 because he might have simply outplayed you. You beat me around 30-1 even without chemical burn and I fail to see that my gear and playskill are so much worse that a 70% advantage for me turned into a 95% disadvantage. Even though you destroyed me, the duels atleast felt very fair and fun to me and the DH actually needs some skill to get a kill instead of just sniping and always staying out of range.
Iria	2013-03-18 19:33
Maybe Rice has better favor to the RNG goddess lol? That is everything in those duels, dodge dodge goose.
Iria	2013-03-18 20:30
Another option instead of the Near Death Experience ban for Chemical Burn ban would be Mystic Ally ban instead. If I already can't hit the Monk due to running around (hard to line-up Impales all the time), stacking dodge, going invincible with Serenity and reviving with Near Death Experience, do they really need another layer of protection? lol
GREEN2172	2013-03-18 21:00
Just ended tests with barb on new rules. No matter legacy nat (77k HP 400+ress 370k DPS) or new nat (90k hp 500+ress 422k DPS) nothing changed after banning War Cry, because they just using Threatening Shout and effect is the same. Still this <puke> tactics: marathon->ignore pain->rend->run->waiting for hp and cd reset->ignore pain->etc... For me its suspicious how big nerfs get WD and how nothing changed in barbs, when they both are OP against DH. Now I have balanced fights with WD, but no change with barbs. Do something with barb nerfs because banning war cry didn't changed anything. If it still will be like now I will just hold 10 challenges all the time, because I don't want to be free frag/point for barbs, and they know good that they have advantage against DH, just look at the barb challenges in league.
predsr	2013-03-18 22:07
@green, can you post me the tags of these barbs your testing vs? i want to do my own testing also
ricebowl	2013-03-18 22:43
Iria, you can't make the rules for the entire league balanced around me vs. you.  You have to put it in perspective with regards to anyone that's not me, like wittster suggested.  If anything, me vs. you is an outlier matchup that shouldn't even be heavily considered when trying to make rules for the entire league at hand.  The point is that monks at *every* gear and skill level have been unfairly pummeled by chemical burn, and yet you can still beat wittster 30-1 without chemical burn.  Similarly, I know that with the banning of chemical burn, my chances of beating non-Iria/Mystical DH's will also be very, very high. And to say that monks generally have more dodge than DH's... I'm sorry, that's bogus.  There's no evidence of this whatsoever.  You had 4% more dodge than me when we played several nights ago.  It doesn't matter how it "feels" - it only matters what the stats page displays.  The rest is up to the dice.
KNHO	2013-03-19 00:39
I duel a lot everyday vs Nofear. I do better everytime, and it seems for me not so hopless as it was in the beginning. Without warcry, it seems to be much more balanced vs him. When i understand right, Executioner can´t play his crazy 200 k hp barb, with 2Handed weapon, without warcry anymore? If yes, this helps A LOT. With old rules, there´s just no chance to kill him, impossible. If some barbs would like to test new rules vs me, feel free to whisp me ingame.
GREEN2172	2013-03-19 01:03
@KNHO: did he used "Threatening Shout"? I played 1 rounjd only when barb didnt used war cry or Threatening Shout and it was very good - he was able to kill me and I was able to kill him. But with Threatening Shout situation is the same like before: war cry: +20% armor +20% ress Threatening Shout: -20% enemy DPS AND 30% slow or -15%as. Someone can say: just avoid Threatening Shout - it's impossible, it's very hard to avoid 17m rend and this shout have 25m range.
devilek666	2013-03-19 01:06
lol...Use Vault or the other invisibiity skill and slow down effect is gone 8)
predsr	2013-03-19 01:07
The slow and ias is irrelevant, it removes with Smokescreen and if im calculating right the -20% dps is not as huge as them losing 20/20 armour res
link1313	2013-03-19 02:17
How many shots did it take with impale to kill without warcry? (crit shots) .
verccety	2013-03-19 04:18
Forbid [i]Marathon[/i] rune as i said before and allow them to use I[i]nspiring Presence[/i] only when they don't have [i]Nerves Of Steel[/i], [i]Tough as Nails[/i] or [i]Relentless[/i]. What about monks, DH with Chemical burn has [b]small[/b] advantage while without monk has a favor especially against non-leg nat users. I think a better solution will be banning [i]Lingering fog[/i] rune.
link1313	2013-03-19 04:52
let me know if any of these barbs have streams. i want to see how they are playing this matchup.
KNHO	2013-03-19 08:44
Yes he does allways use it, but like the others said it´s not a big problem. I tested New Nats and Legacy yesterday. This are 2 realy diffrent playstyles. With New..i got so much dmg that i sometimes 1 shoted the Barb into Ignore pain, after this u can use your remained disci+preparation to score a kill, it´s a all or nothing here, you shouldn´t make mistakes. And stil....if you are low on discipline, it´s very dangerous for the barb to chase you like hell because of the very high dmg output. Now i understand how some Barbs feel vs Captain or Iria. I personally like to be much more on the move, and play very offensive with less dmg, that´s why i´ll go on with legacy against barbs. Maybe i fraps some fights the next days, and show you.
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-19 09:17
vs DH my normal setup is: threatening shout, warcry, ignore pain and its the death for all legacy users because they lack on dps and lack on pressure warcry can be changed to overpower - and nearly nothing changes for 1-handed mode but in 2 handed mode nat04 users can 2-shot the barb so he has to use ignore pain and is killable for the next 30 sec if the dh has enough disc to use it offensive - if the dh lacks on dps and doesnt go for the kill we will never win
devilek666	2013-03-19 10:00
personally I find new nat DH's with insane DPS much harder to deal with. Like Captain his 270k unbuffed hurts like hell. I won with him only using war cry and threteaning shout at the same time. Without war cry i believe it will be much harder. Most of the DH's that are crying here are just lacking DPS to kill Barbs (You need really high dps, 200-220k dps unbuffed won't kill top barb, that's the way it is). You need at least 250k I think.
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-19 10:32
yes @ devil! but its not our fault that they lack on dps - i told 2 weeks ago that they have to use both setups legacy and new natalia to be as flexible as they need to be to win. And i don´t think they will lose vs all barbs. >90% of all barbs they can kill with their "normal" gear and skill-setup. I searched for a setup just to kill Sin and Thomas and surprisingly it worked very well vs dh and barbs.
KNHO	2013-03-19 11:49
As some DH´s mentioned before, the matchup vs Monk(good Monks) is very hard without Chemical burn. I played vs Tobi, he goes into defensive mode with shield and runs very clever around walls..1 mistake by the DH and he is 1 shoted, no matter how much hp he got, the dmg that monks do, is sick. I think the most monks just play to aggressive, try to force a kill no matter what. The question here is, why should i need 4,5 direct hits without Chemical Burn to kill a Monk, and he still kills me by landing 1? So i take a quote from the DH vs Barb discussion "[color=red]But its not our fault that they lack on dps - i told 2 weeks ago that they have to use both setups legacy and new natalia to be as flexible as they need to be to win[/color]". I change it to "[color=green]It´s not our fault, that they lack defense to take some hits by us[/color]". Try to go more defensive vs Dh´s dear Monks, and after this period...we can still talk about baning "CB".
Wittster	2013-03-19 14:32
If you get 1-shotted by a shield monk, you're both undergeared defensively and very unlucky. Also even with a shield and full elite reduction gear, monks get 2/3-shot by dh's. On top of that, DH's have much better healing capabilities than Monk has, lower cooldowns, superior movement etc etc....Anyway, no point in theorycrafting this rule more as both monks and dh's somehow feel like they're the underdog in the matchup...let the test league decide
Iria	2013-03-19 17:34
Yeah, well Rice can 1-shot my DH with a critical Dashing Strike lol. Avoiding Seven Sided Strike or Wave of Light is doable but a skill that moves so fast like Dashing Strike makes a Barbarian's Furious Charge look like hes walking. I admit that he is the only monk I've had problems against without Chemical Burn, but I cannot get enough EHP to not die instantly from his Dashing Strike without seriously gimping my DPS; it already takes 3-4 good critical hits to kill him, should it take more? Edit: I disagree with DH having more healing capabilities. DH have Preparation - Battlescars to fully restore discipline and 60% max life on a 45 second cooldown. We also have potions like every class does. Sure we can regenerate a paltry amount with our Boar or Sentry - Aid Station, but Monks can 1-shot our Boar and who would stand in a healing zone against a Monk, they give us a choice: move or die!
MysticaL	2013-03-19 18:56
I just finished a budget gearset for 800m (edit: not 1b), let's see how it does Add me if anyone wants to duel, any gear any class no class restrictions edit: NVM, DH isn't ready, still need +60 paragon lvls to make up for using budget gear :|
DaRkE	2013-03-19 20:56
PM me your btag please mystio
Iria	2013-03-19 20:59
Fixed
ricebowl	2013-03-19 22:22
It's a lot easier to hit you with SSS than dashing strike.  Dashing takes an immense amount of luck against DHs.
N0F3aR	2013-03-20 00:48
Seriosly Green, STOP CRYING AND WHINING about how OP are barbs. Just use your brain and think how you could kill the barbs ( yes, cuz we have our weakness during the fight, dh just are not using them) insteed of crying NON stop on the forums for banning skills. Cuz if we listening you, ruledeveloper team has to bann all skills of the barbs.
GREEN2172	2013-03-20 01:46
Np for me. 115k hp, 900 ress, 2k hp/s regen + legacy nat - we can run like you. I can also attack you, but we are unable to kill each other. If barb will go dps build - me too. Don't need any nerfs, gl&hf:)
link1313	2013-03-20 01:59
Just noticed wrath of the berserker should probably be banned vs wizards too as it is vs monk and witch doctors.
Forti	2013-03-20 07:49
wrath of the berserker is no problem for me (as monk), the only problems was gear change and ignore pain + range attacks with nice speed (high end geared barbs, much higher than me... much much :) I hope bann gear changes will fix it for a while.
chucknorris#1885	2013-03-20 08:00
Sad to see the direction this league is going with the implementation of so many superfluous rules. Although I did not get a chance to participate in the league I signed up to since it started so late in america, I have 1v1 brawled against more 1000 different high level players since ptr was released. The only issue I see as needed is handicap for wiz. I I think it would be best to ban certain attacks instead of any passive, defensive abilities against wiz. It seems to me that a lot of the currently proposed rules are brought about by lack practice, skill or knowledge by participants of certain classes in the eu league. I can only comment on matches of wd vs other classes but I can tell you with certainty that with proper gearing and skill; monks, barbs, dh are very ballanced against a top level wd. It is simply that currently still very few players understand how to correctly gear and play against the different wd builds. It is very likely that in a pool of only 300 players not one knows how to optimally play or gear against wd yet. I feel this lack of knowledge and skill of the majority is no reason to introduce so many extra restrictions on players. Also very disapointed to see you want to remove gear switch from the league. The one place I see gear switch currently being abused is with players using very long cooldown skills such as wotb and only engaging in combat during their cd. I agree any macros used to switch gear is a definite unfair advantage that should not be allowed but removing gear switch entirely removes a large part of the skill and knowledge from a duel. hope you guys can figure it out.
Forti	2013-03-20 08:13
so... you are wd yes? I europe league, with at least 300 players are totally non skill and just do not know how to play against wd. Soo.. let us help. tell us how, giv us a video meyby? or nick to dude how can easy kill any wd in this league (easy mean less than 100-70 for him). I thinh.. if there is a ~~300 players who always loose with med-high end wd's with score like 5-1/5-2 - this must not be non skill from everyone.
chucknorris#1885	2013-03-20 09:18
yes I am wd with many different gear sets to max different builds including world top 10 pvp dummy, worlds highest dps haunt, worlds top 10 ehp wd. I played more than 300 players in ptr before I find one that can beat me. Now I have met 2 barbs, 2 monks, 1 dh, 1 wd. that has good play against wd of over 1000 different players looking always for the best. These players use very different gear/builds than the majority of players I face, therefore with just 300 players in eu I think its very possible that all simply just lacking knowledge of proper gearing/build for fighting wd. wd is hard to play against because very little tolerence for mistake in gearing, build or micro. but when you figure it out any class except wiz can go 50/50 vs worlds best wd. just my experience from hundreds of hours of pvp. if player makes mistake in gearing/build/play its not possible to beat good wd but rules should not be made to compensate for players mistakes imo. If these rules are implemented and players can go 50/50 against wd then they will stop testing new builds/gear and stop improving. Never learn to beat wd without handicap. never master pvp. for other classes its the same just lacking knowledge and proper gear. monk vs wd must use 2h but monk vs dh must go full ehp/regen/shield. any monk with only one set will be weak vs either wd or dh. it is not needed to give monk handycap simply because they choose to have 1 gear set and loose, when they have option to go 2 gear set and win. same for wd need two different gear set vs monk and dh or loose.
KNHO	2013-03-20 12:52
So green you´re ready to stalemate now  ;D ;D ;D ? Seems to get funny. I think this wan´t help, since the Barbs then just play 2Handed+Wotb and still hurt you very crazy. I played yesterday a best of 15 vs Hola, one of the very strong vs DH Barbs in this league. It was 8:7 for him. I had 550 phys resis, 58 k hp, 420 k dmg with SS and Steady Aim (with a very average legacy set). I still lack dmg and a lot hp. If i had better gear, i´m sure i could have set a few more kills :) In my eyes this matchup is balanced with the new rules now. One thing we should "maybe" think about is.. to forbid the upper left corner for barbs. This spot is so fuckin lame.... coz every time they get low, the camping there starts. If the Island should be forbidden area for DH, ban this corner for the Barbs.
jointit	2013-03-20 13:22
Dafuq? Chucknorris you managed to write two very long posts yet you actually said nothing other than that you think rules are bad and that players havent figured out why. Thats a stable zero in feedback. Why are players bad? What do barbs do wrong and how should barbs play? How should a barb gear properly against a wd? How should other classes play and gear vs WD? You have met a couple who gives you a challange - what did they do? How did they gear? The answer to those questions is what gives this Rule proposition any feedback.
chucknorris#1885	2013-03-20 14:11
I simply wanted to bring to your awareness that although they are not common knowledge yet, that there are strats and builds currently existing that if geared properly for will allow barb, monk, and dh to beat equally geared wd without any additional handicaps. But sorry Im not planning to write a guide about how to do it for every class.
Forti	2013-03-20 16:00
Dude.. I See you like this: "im pro. You are weak and unskilled." But in reality you are: "i were pro. Than u made rulez. With these rulez i losing with some guys. Game without these stupid rulez was much more better. Now IT is unbalanced because im losing. " U didnt made any sens feedback, only trolling.. Sorry for the True. Made by tapatalk
DaRkE	2013-03-20 16:58
[color=orange] With DH good dps vs monk good ehp, it takes only 2 max! 3 ! impale to kill monk and his near death experience. Full BT, Litany, full stacked Vita Armor Resist, Shield etc ( we were stacking ehp and elite reduction in every possible slot) As for me it is totally easy mode to make 2 impale and dodge all of monk's attack with the advantage of only be open to damage at periods of 0.5 seconds. When I have play monk I did feel the duels versus demonhunter was quite okay. Then I did try to switch and play demonunter and versus a monk. My impression so far was just like oh my god this is some easy shit lol. Then the effective DPS of haunt is alot more than impale, and aswell a much larger range and  much more user friendly or so to say easy to aim. A particular example of impale versus my specefic monk: Chemical Burn : ( this does 1 hit  86 000 life gone @ my monk ) Total Damage/Cast  851960 chuck, can you please tell me your damage per cast on your haunt in particular? Preferebly with the different usable runes and your different usable gear sets, thank you. [/color]
ricebowl	2013-03-20 23:17
Have to agree here.  It's funny how he writes an essay basically bragging about beating everyone and having the best gear but doesn't want to participate in the league because he's better than us nor does he want to give any constructive criticism on how to improve the league.
link1313	2013-03-21 01:14
was just testing this out further today. ray of frost gets gg'd vs zerker. at least make wiz's competitive lol.
chucknorris#1885	2013-03-21 04:13
sry if u guys only take that from my post. my advice on what changes would be good for a competitive league at this time: ban certain attacks vs wiz.  do no ban non attacks vs wiz. for example ban haunt for wd vs wiz. ban impale for dh vs wiz. ban rend for barb vs wiz ban wave of light for monk vs wiz. something like that. I know from experience other class changes not needed for even fight vs wd. not sure if other non wd matchups are imballanced or simply counter not well known. Darke i cant give u a simple answer to that I use many different gear set ups that all change the dmg. I do know monk is the hardest class for me to play against if the monk knows how to play well and has good micro. once you get good at ds micro monk actually has a equal range to wd. and about 7times the dmg output per second. even budget geared skilled monk can beat worlds best geared wd.
ricebowl	2013-03-21 04:22
[quote]for example ban haunt for wd vs wiz. ban impale for dh vs wiz. ban rend for barb vs wiz ban wave of light for monk vs wiz[/quote] Good thing nobody will ever, ever take you seriously.
chucknorris#1885	2013-03-21 04:36
what is it you do not like about my suggestion? I think removing attacks instead of def skills is a much better option to ballance. wiz does have some very effective offence with tele with wave of force rune + blast + wave of force. with good micro can dish out 900+ wep dmg instantly just too many wiz give up on pvp before finding good pvp build but also they are lacking in def against dots imo. thats why i suggest remove the dots attack vs them.
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-21 08:06
I have the same opinion as many of you. The more we play and the more we try we figure out that blizz gave us so many things to try and to counter nearly every shit we feel its op at first. The more i play the more i get the feeling that this game @ max-gear-lvl is much more balanced than everyone thought. But we all need months maybe years to gear up further and to test all our possibilities. But this leaque season 2 starts soon. An so far only 2 or 3 sorc played with us there. So its the right way to go if u give them some advantage just that we get players here to test. Dh vs. Barb i have the same opinion. In my eyes the most of our dh lack a bit on skill in positioning, aiming and timing in using recourses offensively. Furthermore their pvp gear cost billions and most dont even can affort the needed gear. For barb u can counter that 90% geared dh too easy at the moment just if u go vita-easymode. Will change the day a skilled, perfect geared dh arrives. He will hunt us down as dear^^ Until that day comes we also have to buff dh in that setup just to hold em in the leaque and to give the chance to test new skills. well, thats what i think
KNHO	2013-03-21 08:50
@Exe There will never be much "perfect geared", "skilled" DH´s. In my whole D2 playtime, i´ve only met 4-5 realy good Amazons. That´s why i say the same thing as mentioned by someone before, make the rules looking up to the best in the league. If you take the best Barbs in last season, and look at their stats against the best DH´s, you don´t need to talk about "We need to buff Dh´s, till they learn how to play", because i´m pretty sure, those few good DH´s know what to do, how to gear, and how to play, so there must be another problem with that. When season 2 comes, remember my words, even without warcry 95% of the DH´s in this league will still loos vs Barbarians :))) The other 5% will still kill all average Barbs, and go on loosing to the top 5% of the barbs. @Admins remember what i said "Forbid the upper left corner" for Barbs. There are enough other places to camp.
Iria	2013-03-21 09:34
After some bouts with Tbone today, I think my Impale - Impact strategy is very effective until he uses Juggernaut passive. However, I can just not use Impact and he then wastes a passive. However, once he switches it to another passive, I can reequip Impact. [size=10pt]And then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, [size=8pt]and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, [size=7pt]and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, [size=6pt]and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, [size=5pt]and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, [size=4pt]and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, [size=3pt]and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, [size=2pt]and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, [size=1pt]and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact, and then he switches to Juggernaut, and then I equip Chemical Burn, and then he switches to another passive, and then I switch to Impact[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size] ......... you now see the problem with the rule? "When the two players have agreed on what to wear they will both do a confirmation of their opponents equipment by writing "okay" in the chatbox." Quote from the movie War Games: "The best winning move is not to play."
RoGH	2013-03-21 09:51
We are aware of that problem and we have a solution what to do when both sides cant come to an agreement, but before showing all cards we would like to see how often it will be like this ;)
DaRkE	2013-03-21 12:38
[color=orange]IMP-Exec is spot on and definitivly a correct understanding about how the process overvveiw looks. I encourage all to read his post a second time. As he specify it will take time and there are still development by players aswell as blizzard. In Diablo 2 it took several season's and in the end for a stable patch before pvp in synergy with the rules became really well and joyfull competative pvp. I think it is very imporant for everyone to understand as he points out that we balance the rules around the current metagame and knowledge we do have about the game. Aswell as in some situatuation one choice is made above another that might favor one class, but it will not decide the outcome of the match. [color=orange]I really do hope this explain a little bit of the situation to the community, why there are currently considerations of banning Haunt and Impale. /Hug and thank you all again for taking such an interess to help develop and share your experience in the matchups so far.[/color][/color]
chucknorris#1885	2013-03-21 13:37
Darke that is some interesting stuff but doesnt change the fact that for a monk to go def vs wd is a big mistake and in fact monk is the hardest class for wd to play against if monk has good micro. actually this match up very much favors monk if proper gear (2h) and good micro is learned. you are proposing handicap for monk vs wd simply to compensate monks bad choice in build and gear and lack of micro skills. even undergeared monk can defeat worlds best gear wd with mastery of map control and micro. if you implement handicap monks will stop progressing skills and simply rely on handicap to even match up.
Euronymous	2013-03-21 14:04
Chuck, you have to put the general rules in the picture. It's first to 5 with the option to rejoin after each round. I don't like the odds for monks to reach 5 first if they go all out offense against a WD with spirit vessel and the ability to get double-kills at will with haunt. Well it's still better than to go defensive and lose 0-5, but balanced dueling is something else for me.
Iria	2013-03-21 18:26
Ok, good! Just as long as there is something that can be done for these encounters. I suppose two obvious solutions could be (1) cancel challenge or (2) both players gear up in secret and can't change once they view each other; however, that decides the duel by a coin toss lol.
Forti	2013-03-21 22:11
monk mistyc ally with Eternal Ally rune. it's bugged? when I die, it is still alive - when my opponent kill it (I'm still dead) after 3 sec it comes to alive again... and again and again.. I even won one round with this...
Iria	2013-03-21 23:39
Just add the rule: when the monk dies, the round is over. Or once the Mystic Ally dies for the first time after the monk dies the round is over.
Forti	2013-03-21 23:50
when monk dies? no... It doesnt make sens. if the ally die after me then ok... that make sens ofc.
GREEN2172	2013-03-22 00:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWDJshl7GS8 Two conclusions: 1. Balanced ehp-dps DH  and ehp-dps Barb can kill each other. 2. EHP DH vs EHP Barb cannot kill each other and fight lasts an hour. As you can see on movie it was senseless fight until he changed during round to more DPS, and in league we cannot change items in fight so this could last an hour. Dunno what idea devs have to solve this. Maybe rule that DPS cannot be lower then x% of EHP - this will eliminate stalemates and 1h senseless fights. And greetings to "OMG OMG OMG" nofear:D
ricebowl	2013-03-22 02:25
EHP is not the problem, massive regen combined with high mobility is.  Both players have high mobility and high regen = stalemate.
MysticaL	2013-03-22 02:48
Green, I checked out your gear, I think your gear is good enough to beat some pretty crazy geared barbs. Maybe from the video you said DH EHP gear vs Barb EHP gear. Why EHP gear vs Barb? From my perspective, the only way a barb can win is if they just keep pressuring (and running at you) with insane eHP and force you to burn all your discipline, and lowering your DPS makes it much easier for barbs to do this. But for someone with 400K (non-IAS) sharpshooter DPS & legacy, it's more than enough to knock out 200K+ HP barbs. I would suggest to try being more offensive by using Steady Aim though. Thrill of the hunt isn't good anymore, it was only good during PTR when the barbs had PvE gear Also why use Boar?  It's not very useful in general vs barbs, try using mark for death. You're basically losing 20% from steady, 12% from mark. 1.20 * 1.12 = 1.34. That's losing 34% damage... And maybe use an inna's belt vs barbs. 8% pure damage from the belt alone beats a witching hour DPS wise (50 crit dmg can't compare to +8%, and IAS... is not damage), let alone the extra +130 dex, as long as you're at 350-400+ resist all & 70k+ HP it's enough vs barbs damn, I should have recorded my duels with Nofear today and Devil yesterday, I did very well against both of them even with my current gear lol (however I did get destroyed by Blud >_>)
GREEN2172	2013-03-22 11:21
I can explain all but I'm sure that barbs here will again say I'm crying for nerfs:) So tl;dr: I tried offensive build (548k DPS, 59k HP 300 ress), I tried balanced build (307-341k DPS 75-97k HP 550-800 ress) and max EHP build (90k DPS without SS, 115k HP 900 ress 2k regen life) and only EHP works:) They must be forced to use more DPS build or they will win 99% od duels with DH. If you don't believe check nofear stats from 1 season, he fight usually with DH because he have adventage - with much cheaper items he won with captain and others. If rules don't do something with this EHP builds I will just use EHP build too and we both will lose 1 hour.
mirek	2013-03-22 11:26
Welcome to the club :)
predsr	2013-03-22 14:14
[i]max EHP build (90k DPS without SS, 115k HP 900 ress 2k regen life) and only EHP works:)[/i] EHP doesn't work, as your not winning the duel thus not 'working', i also think gear costs should not have to do with anything in terms of balancing If i can beat him decisively(this was about 3 weeks ago, he can possibly rape me now :)), then i dont see why you couldn't either I dont think he dueled DH's because he had an advantage, its because there are alot of active DH's in the league, check the mirrors and youll see DH is most populated and most active
GREEN2172	2013-03-22 14:32
heh pred, only you win against barbs (and not all barbs - only this with much cheaper items) and sometimes lil. Your eq is worth bilions of gold (as you can see on movie, your quote "i bought [item name] 2b") and you say balance is not needed because you can win with cheap barbs? Statistics show us simple fact: to not lose against ehp geared barb DH need to: a) spend xx bilions of gold b) wear max EHP gear and lose an 1hour It is unfortunate that only you are in the dev team (from DH) because your gear is worth several times more then other DH and your opinion is subjective because you just do not see problems with this matchup. Can you win easily with barb who have endgame items worth xx bilions like you? I doubt. Ppl with cheaper eq (<3-4b) just see one simple problem: barb can gear cheap EHP items and he can make many mistakes and still win against DH - DH must spend A LOT of gold to even have a chance if he not make any mistake - maybe he will win, MAYBE. EOT for me - if dev team want it np, I will just play barbstyle with ehp gear.
Forti	2013-03-22 14:37
+1 @ up Made by tapatalk
predsr	2013-03-22 14:55
that "i bought [item name] 2b" was a barb spear :) I disagree with a), because this game is all about gear building if you cant keep up with equal gear vs other opponents, its not something that should be put into balancing rules because you cant afford the items I do see problems but im holding back pointing them about here(and in dev forum) simply because i still think its early for rules and we need months and months of play to get a better idea of what changes are needed the changes i thought needed dissapeared over time when i upgraded my gear, skills/spec, and tactics
GREEN2172	2013-03-22 15:05
Of course it should be - when 1 class can completly ignore DPS because they have 700% dota skill and other class cannot, so they need to spend xx bilions of gold and that is problem with balance, not with gear:)
KNHO	2013-03-22 16:00
100% agreed Ryu.
GREEN2172	2013-03-22 16:25
100% agreed Ryu. [/quote] vs Barb From your stats: 15 matches: 12 lose, 3 win = 25% My stats: 27 matches: 10 lose, 17 win = 63% You played almost 2x matches less then me, you won more then 2x less then me, and you still think that I have not right when I say that problem exists because of class skills, not tactics? Seems legit;]
KNHO	2013-03-22 16:45
GREEN, i didn´t play PTR. I didn´t play any other classes. So i started from zero in this league. All my duels have been a testing "How to", and learning by dueling. If you red my upper posts, you would know that i play right now like 50/50 vs Hola, Nofear. I just spend 3 weeks of my time, dueling the best Barbs everyday, and now...i know how to play and what to do against them. I think this will help you too, but you got to afford more time for practice instead of writing nonsense posts. Taking away "Warcry", is ok for the next season. After this, conclussions still can be made. MysticaL manages to keep up with his low geared EU DH...agaisnt Nofear, Devil too. <---Think about that. Is he maybe a alien?
GREEN2172	2013-03-22 17:13
Proof or didn't happen.
Iria	2013-03-22 17:57
Against Barb, I use max DPS build which consists of 546k DPS (710k to elites) with Sharpshooter and Steady Aim. I also use Marked for Death - Mortal Enemy (795k to marked elites). Lastly, I have 70k life, 69 discipline, 4k armor, 400+ all resists in this build. I haven't had major problems with Barbs recently but they are the toughest class for me at the moment. If I use Impale - Impact and they don't use Juggernaut, I can win against most Barbs with great success.
jointit	2013-03-22 19:50
You bought that spear and gave it to mannercookie?  >:(
predsr	2013-03-22 20:31
nah, I just knew he could flip it for me :)

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