Written by: Spirals | Date: 2013-03-04 17:45:58 | Related to: D3CL General

Hey guys, we present you in this topic the ruleversion 1.2 for the coming rule season. First of all I'd like to thank the ruledevelopers (Darke, Jointit, Keen, Captain, Kaio, Rogh and Alexwitt) for their input and testing. We have also read through the public discussion and taken some ideas/points from there.

These rules you read here are a draft. They aren't final yet. I will make them final on 12 march. We will take input to edit the final rules up until 11 march 23.59.

Some points which are yet under discussion are: - Haunt and the relative strenght of WD; we have implemented some rules regarding WD but we aren't completely sure yet. Additional testing will be done so we can take these findings for the final 1.2 version. - Taking up the rules regarding walkovers / some sort of description - explanation of the procedure into ruleversion 1.2

What else? We would like to see your (constructive) feedback (this means explanations) on the rules. We haven't banned any items and try to get balance by not allowing certain skills in certain match ups. You probably see a huge buff to the Wizard class. We felt this was needed.

Comments

GREEN2172	2013-03-04 18:28
Very good rules for me, but I see some problems: 1. DH: "In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” is not allowed." A lot of wizards kill me with 1-2 hits from Storm Armor ( I have 99k hp), and we cannot hit them from close range because of it without Battle Scars, so this rule with result in spamming autoaim arrows from looong distance. It's not a good idea, good wizard can now easily kill good dh, for example kaio and divalo (or delivio?) playing very good and use strange tactics. 2. "In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” the Witch Doctor is not allowed to use “Summon Zombie Dogs” or “Gargantuan”. It shoud be "to use “Summon Zombie Dogs” [b]AND[/b] “Gargantuan" or only ban zombie dogs. This rule now make no change, because it's immpossible to kill WD with 2x near death skills with invisible + zombi dogs who spam autoaim massacre DPS Haunt;) If they will not have zombie dogs they gonna wear more armor/ress/hp and less DPS and then fight should be equal. If zombie dogs will stay then nothing in fight against WD will change. DH cannot attack from long distance with any autoaim skills or normal, because everything is taking by dogs, and WD can attack us from long distance, better then screen resolution with Haunt. So now situation is simply: we MUST stay face to face with WD because of his dogs, and he can attack us everywhere with autoaim 500%+dps skills;) I losed with some "trash" geared WD only because their skills, without zombi dogs only good WD can still win, not all specially for PvP made WD with paragon 0 and trash items.
kaio	2013-03-04 18:42
there are really alot of dh that can one shot me even with those bans.. Captain 1shot me coming close in a sec for exemple McP easy beat me too. Maybe it's a metter of skills and right builds...
KNHO	2013-03-04 18:48
I will fight some WD´s today, so what is it exactly now in DH vs WD? No "Zombiedogs" and no "Gargantuan"? Or "Zombiedogs or Gargantuan"? If they got the choice, then i totaly agree with Green it´s very hard to deal with.
GREEN2172	2013-03-04 18:49
This rules will be in season 2 of league, not now. And this is proposition for now only.
Keen	2013-03-04 18:52
"The Witch Doctor is only allowed to wield a shield in mirror matches." So shield is not allowed vs dhs. banning all pets its too much then.
Lilith	2013-03-04 18:54
Good rules but: They never use gargantua lol, so what is the restriction?
GREEN2172	2013-03-04 18:56
No, it's a metter of luck. Every DH can put max CD (100% amu, 50% ring + 50% ring + 50% arms + 300% manti + 50% belt + 50% passive skill= 650% CD) + sharpshooter and it will be luck that he will shoot you and kill first OR your storm armor will hit and not miss first. I play vs wizz with my normall pvp eq, so my fights against wizzards was interesting, but now I will have not option but only to make max CD with SS and kill with 1 shot. It gonna be very luck-based fights. But this is not a problem, I know that wizzards are weaker now in league so they must get buff, but dogs in WD IS a real problem. @keen: "So shield is not allowed vs dhs. banning all pets its too much then." If you will have only Gargantuan it gonna be okay for all I think, but if you have 4 dogs and gargantuan and you stand behind them with 2 near death skills spamming 500%+ autoaim skill it's almost immossible to kill you (specially all WD wear 130+k hp). Your haunt can kill DH in 0,5s between SS, and we need min. 5-10 seconds to kill you;)
GREEN2172	2013-03-04 19:01
They never use gargantua lol, so what is the restriction? [/quote] What is the restriction ? 1 no shield 2 only spirit vessel passive(2nd live) or spirit walk allowed 3 only hex or horrify(fear) allowed [/quote] hex and horrify didnt make anything on DH, our SS cancel it, so its no nerf. Dogs are skill that make WD so OP class.
Keen	2013-03-04 19:04
They never use gargantua lol, so what is the restriction? [/quote] What is the restriction ? 1 no shield 2 only spirit vessel passive(2nd live) or spirit walk allowed 3 only hex or horrify(fear) allowed [/quote] hex and horrify didnt make anything on DH, our SS cancel it, so its no nerf. Dogs are skill that make WD so OP class. [/quote] 1 horrify after use gives 100% armor for 8 secs. 2 shield > pets vs dh. 3 hex or horrify force dh to use ss so they loss discipline
Mr.Mag	2013-03-04 19:08
there will be "AND" for sure, "not' is a mistake
error	2013-03-04 19:09
It's nice to see the first version of a solid approach to balance class matching. I just wanted to note that in DH vs Wiz matches applying both limitations at the same time seems a bit too much: [i]-  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Companion” with the rune “Boar” is not allowed. -  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” is not allowed.[/i] There wouldn't be any problem if wizzards had Storm Armor banned. I'd love you to try this built against a no pig/no healing DH vs a Wiz using: - Big fat Skorn - Storm Armor:Thunder Storm - Mirror Images:Duplicates - Teleport:Wormhole
Keen	2013-03-04 19:10
banning both pets and shield is too much vs dh (remember that only spirit vessel is allowed or spirit walk so no second live). it has been tested
kaio	2013-03-04 19:19
I'v got that build (not skorn but got a really decent dps as u can check...) and tested it and still no problems for dh similar geared to pown me
N0F3aR	2013-03-04 19:47
In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” and “Witch Doctor” the passive skill “Inspiring presence” is not allowed I am sorry but this is not good idea. Maybe the top barbs with end game gear can allowed this, but for medium geared this means giving the duel into the hands of the DH and WD. I will no longer could fight dh that outgear me. Example - End game geared Dh with Legacy natalia - he has like endless discipline resourse. Its hard to be outruned, its hard to be killed while his discipline is full ( becous of smoke screen). He just spam vault (with rune that gives him reduction disc cost) and run run and run over the map. How i could hunt him if i will not be able to regen life? He comes stun, then 2-3 impales, then he starts to run and run. Or i jump into him, i rend him, then he stuns, impale impale, run run. I start to hun hunt. The focus here is resourse and life. And when he is on low life, he just use his Preparation with heal. How i will return my life? Maybe Dh vs Barbs are like balanced fights. And more, how barbs with no mega gear gonna fight dh that has like 300k dps unbuffed (not old nata) and like 70-80k life with 600-800 resist? If you not allow Inspiring pressence then maybe you should not alow to be used preparation with 60% life return. And maybe ban legacy nata. As to fight with WD, dont know really. We already got Wotb banned, and he got hex banned. Maybe that is enough, or maybe Inspiring pressence is not needed. That has to be test it.
GREEN2172	2013-03-04 19:53
@NoFear: “Inspiring presence” give barbs a HUGE advatage against dh with new natalya, you can only sprint/jump->rend->run ALLL the time, and every barb in top30 is using it, and DH with new natalya have 4-5 SS + 4-5 SS from preparation and after that we are defenseless and cannot kill you because you can hit&run and regenerate HP. Legacy natalya makes DH vs Barb equal, but legacy nat is possible to buy only for ppl who bought it a long time ago, so it's no fair that new players cannot buy it. If we ban “Inspiring presence” we can ban old natalya to make all fights equal, but this is decision of judges. And don't say that we have 300k dps. We have 300k dps on 1 shot with Sharpshooter, after that our DPS comes to 140-170k.
Lilith	2013-03-04 19:57
NoFear Why u think that u should take down high geared dh with medium geared barb? So what can say high geared dh thats lose all the time with high imba barb? Please think about it. @Green Go to Ah, there are many legacy nats.
Spirals	2013-03-04 20:04
I'd like to point out that we work with the following slogan: "We base these rules on the best versus best situation" If you are undergeared you have something to work on: if you are underskilled, you have something to work on.. but reversing it and making mediocre rules will not suffice for high quality duels.
predsr	2013-03-04 20:13
Played some test games vs vimer(barb) using nats legacy old set, i dint even win a round, ive no idea how high end vimers gear is.  however i did feel like he outplayed me and was much more clever in the tactics he used
Euronymous	2013-03-04 20:53
You know that I really appreciate the effort you guys are putting into making a good place for pvp in D3. But those rules are really disappointing. I think you got the problem with WD totally wrong. WD is the new Wiz with these rules, better offensively but even worse defensively and in mobility. I'm not sure how much WDs had a saying in those rules (Keen was mentioned but looked suprised about some rules in his post too), but the restrictions are just too much. WD is a very fragile class. It's just tough to realize it because right now you could combine all the few defensive/mobility skills a WD has in one build. Taking away spirit vessel or spirit walk in all fights alone will break the class, it just doesn't work without them. Taking away even more (hex/horrify, no shield, pets in some cases) will make them the laughing stock of d3cl. It's not the defense that was the sole problem with WD - I'm pretty sure any class could easily take a WD out. It was the combination of a powerful offense with a wide variety of defensive and utility spells. Taking away only the latter will result in extremely dull and short fights. Lets look at some match-ups: vs. Monks old rules: tough match-up because WD lacks the mobility to get away from monks and also the defense to not get 1-shot (2-shot with spirit vessel) by wave of light. It was a kill or get killed kind of duel. new rules: no shield, no spirit walk or no spirit vessel. Monks stay the same. Duels were short and boring before, now they will last about 4s - the duration of serenity. 5-0 for monks. Possible solution for the monk vs. wd match-up: ban wave of light and then balance the duel around a monk without wave of light. WDs will have to get some limits offensively too. vs. DH old rules: slightly in favor of WD or even match-up if the DH was playing with legacy nats and very good movement (check Mystical from the US). Why did the WD win? Mostly because of his dots (haunt and plague bats) while trying to stay alive with the combined use of spirit walk, vessel, horrify armor buff, pets and maybe even shield. new rules: you take away more than 50% of the defensive skills and the possibility of a shield. DH stay the same. It will be ridiculously easy for a good DH to take down a WD with those changes. possible solution: limit the WD to one dot (haunt or plague bats) and one of hex/horrify and one of pets/shield/jungle fortitude. Okay I keep it at that for now. I don't see how those rules would be more fun or fair for most match-ups. Hopefully some experienced non-WD players can second how one-sided most fights vs. WD will be. I think you have to make the restrictions to skills more balanced. Right now you take away mostly defensive skills. This will result in a lot of boring fights, worse than the early pvp days on PTR when everyone was dueling in pve gear, 1-shotting each other.
GREEN2172	2013-03-04 21:10
@Euro: your wall of text can be shorted to "they want to nerf my OP class!!!11oneone, don't do it!" DH must aim with skills, you not DH dota have 2s duration and take 220%dmg IF DH hit you with it, your autoaim dota take 500%+ in 5 seconds (you can run after dota and DH must spend 1/2 of his dyscypline to survive) DH have only 1 def skill: SS, and with normal set we can use it 6-8 times (that give us ~8-10seconds of fight) and after that we have 45 s cd. And you? We cannot hit you (pets) - you spam haunt. If we hit you we cannot kill you - 2x near death skills and all time spamming haunt. And your near death skills? 1 have 13s cd and second 60s. DH have 1 pet who die from autoaim in 2s, you have 5 fuckin pets and always hide behind them. etc... You still think that your class will be punished by banning pets? Lend DH account from any of your friends and play against keen, and after that you can come here and say that your class will be worst then wizzard now.
kaio	2013-03-04 21:20
I didn't worked on the WD vs Monk and Dh but I'll speak about what we are tring to do: Some fights are not a metter of boring or not boring sometimes are just impossible to play for sm1. Not for gear or skills just for "no ballance by blizz". We try samthing almost impossible for us that we aren't blizz, and ofc we can do better and ofc this topic is open for u to give us feedback and work on them BUT: Find a similar geared dh/monk try some duels with those rules and try different setup to avoid bans. Come back and tell us how it goes. Sometimes facing new rules make u finding new builds/items that u dind thought to use...
Lilith	2013-03-04 21:39
+1 Now im thinking about skills that can replace battle scars and boar in dh vs wiz :)
Euronymous	2013-03-04 22:17
@Green I don't think you remotely understood or even read my post. You also seem to have a lack of knowledge about other classes as your posts are always dripping with misinformation (just from your last post: spirit walk cd is 15s, spirit vessel is 90s and reduces spirit walk and horrify cds by 2s). Therefore I don't think arguing with you will bring up anything useful. @kaio I gave feedback in the other thread and was one of the few posters pushing for their own class to get nerfed. You have to understand that spirit walk and spirit vessel are the core of a witch doctor and removing one or the other will break the class. It's like removing smokescreen from DHs and tell them to find alternatives and tell them to explore their char better. WD is useless without them and sadly there are no alternatives for these skills. A lot of people seem to underestimate the fact that WD was more "out-of-the-box" ready for pvp than probably any other class due to the overwhelming arsenal of powerful skills and the fact that balanced WD pve gear is not that different from what they use in pvp. But now that other classes have geared up and figured out how WDs work that gap became a lot smaller. Ask players with high-end gear and lots of experience in D3 pvp, and I think that's what you want to base your rules on, most of them will tell you that WD vs. DH/Monk/Barb are relatively in balance right now. Some will even claim Barb/DH/Monk > WD at a really high-end level. In my opinion, one or two limitations per match-up like banning Hex, limiting the amount of auto-aiming attacks will be more than enough to even it out. I played countless hours of D3 pvp, especially vs. DH and Barbs and tested pretty much any skill in hundreds of different builds. Again, there are no alternatives to the spirit walk/spirit vessel combo and WD are bottom-feeders without it, especially when you ban most of the other defensive skills too. Can't state more than my opinion on it, I guess we will have to wait for the ladder next season.
VimeR	2013-03-04 22:22
good rules, good work
Lilith	2013-03-04 22:26
@Euro We will see in practice how it works. If wd's ass will get kicked to hard we back to  spirit walk and vessel combo in 3rd sezon.
Euronymous	2013-03-04 22:46
Sure, that's bound to happen if the rules stay this way. But since the rules are not in place yet, I might as well try to argue and prevent that from happening, right? Spirals specifically asked for feedback on WD because they are not sure yet. That's why I'm pointing out that they are going the wrong direction with Spirit Walk/Vessel bans. Other classes often whine about Haunt and banning Haunt in some cases will not break the WD class. That would be a much smarter restriction and WDs are actually able to work around that with other skills. The wording of the rules vs. Wizard seems to be redundant or wrong btw. -  The Witch Doctor can use either “Spirit Walk” or “Spirit Vessel” but not both. -  In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Spirit Walk” is not allowed. -  In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor is not allowed to use “Spirit Walk”, “Summon Zombie Dogs” or “Gargantuan”. While were at it. Have you faced a WD that could beat you without spirit walk, pets, shield and hex/horrify, kaio?
Lilith	2013-03-04 22:56
@Euro Kaio is glass canon so u can kill him by any random skill^^
error	2013-03-04 23:17
I've been playing with Euronymous and other WD since the PTR and I can assure you that, for a DH, dueling against a  WD w/o minions the fight is sightly in favor to the DH. If WD's no Spirit Vessel and other deffensive habilities I doubt duels will require many skill for DH to kill them. Please try to arrange some balancing pvp trials to figure out those changes. I'm up for it if you need a Legacy/Non Legacy DH to try stuff.
Forti	2013-03-04 23:26
wd got problems now. for me, monk, it's looking pretty nice.
Iria	2013-03-05 01:05
Lol with the proposed rules, my DH is going to absolutely stomp every other class in the US League. No inspiring presence = I can trash Barbs before they eventually reach me. No pets or shield for WD = I can kill them very very fast and I have the EHP and discipline to tank Haunt (I was already doing quite well against WD with all their skills). I never had any issues with Wizards or Monks (and never needed companion anyways). I think this new rule-set highly plays to the tune of DH; and if you further ban Legacy Natalya's, I might possibly be one of the top DH in Americas lol.
predsr	2013-03-05 01:29
Just a side note, has everyone whos posted actuly tested (and extensivly) before posting? alot of things look different on paper than when its actuly played out
devilek666	2013-03-05 01:37
Barb vs DH Are you kidding me? Atm high-end gear barb vs high end gear DH is very close matchup.Berserker usually close the deal, taking it away could be good balance attempt...however, inspiring presence? Are You kidding? without nerfing DH? lol... any good DH will rape Barb...the only option now was to tank dh while chasing him all over the map..now few shots and barb is dead..watch some mannercookie fights with Majestic..LOL. GOOD DH wont let you rend. As for barb vs WD...taking hex and berserker would be enough... You said that You don\t wanna ban gear, but You just broke most of the barbs.. p.s. I think that good option would be to take away Rend from barb cause the last thing that can kill dh. LOL. after some testing vs DH...this is completly inbalanced..all comes down to kamping and lucky crits from rend (countered by preparation)..which wont happen with GOOD DH and there is maybe 1 like this in our league atm..but because there isn't any good DH's in this league You come up wih rules, so they can win.
DaRkE	2013-03-05 02:22
Devilek666 / NOfear do you have any specefic demonhunters in mind that i can try versus or is it just a theory? I have allready tested versus alot of good demonhunters I know, both with natalya's soul and wrath. I still think barbarian has a small favor in theese duels.
devilek666	2013-03-05 02:26
Have You try Lilith?
DaRkE	2013-03-05 02:27
Duelling with him as we speak actually :-) How are your results versus him without inspiring presence?
RoGH	2013-03-05 02:27
Stop whining and loling please, those arent any official rules yet, we have published that draft to get your feedback and thx for that. We can always keep inspiring presence vs dh, but wd vs barb? Check out how it goes without hex and bers, imo its too easy for barb, because without hex its extremely hard for wd to make that final blow with regen 4-5k hp/sec&relentless passive. Oh and remember guys that we want to ban island, dunno if it changes a lot, but should preserve us from some bad mannered camping/bunker spot. It also nerfs wiz a bit, because he was often using it with teleport as an espace from angry barb;)
zee	2013-03-05 02:28
Who's coming up with these silly rules? Barbarian [quote]In a mirror match Barbarians cannot use a shield[/quote] A Skorn build bvb will out perform at s/b barb any day. This has been tested extensively by the top Barbs on US. The The barb should feel free to use w/e they like, keeping in mind that Skorn >. [quote]The Barbarian cannot use the skill “Wrath of the Berserker” versus the Wizard, Monk and Witch-Doctor.[/quote] Fair enough vs. Wizard. No need it vs Monks. But WD's ... unless you want to have a stale mate, top end barb vs wd duels requires the barb to have WOTB to make sure the duels don't go over 20 min long ... this is assuming the WD has enough EHP to stand 1 crit HOTA even with a Skorn. [quote]In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” and “Witch Doctor” the passive skill “Inspiring presence” is not allowed[/quote] This has to be a joke. The DH that proposed this either aren't skilled enough with the legacy set or aren't tanky enough with the new set. If anyone's on the Americas server, duel Mystical (legacy) or Revrac (non-legacy) on a barb and you'll find out that barbs NEED Inspiring Presence ... and even then it's still a very hard match. [quote]In duels versus the “Wizard” the rune “Marathon” from the skill “Sprint” is not allowed [/quote] This may actually grant Wizard a chance, not bad of a rule [quote]In duels versus the “Wizard” the Barbarian can choose one, but not more of the following skills: “Ground Stomp”, “Leap” with rune “Death from Above”, “Charge” with rune “Bull Rush”, “Bash” with rune “Clobber” or “Weapon Throw” with rune “Throwing Hammer”.[/quote] I see that no more than 1 stun should be allowed. Fair enough, does that mean more than 1 of these skills with non-stun runes can be chosen?
devilek666	2013-03-05 02:31
so now imagine that his gear is average..he doesn't have manticore for high burst and no res on items...top notch dh would have it with same dps... ROGH: haven't tested against WD... I just read the DH changes and it made me quit the league.. as mentioned above watch Majestic from US server...lol http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie/c/1969663 this link from 1h20min mark...Dh can endlessly kite barb..if barb has no possibility to regen 4-5k hp is dead within 30 seconds... it's just so stupid, that I can't imagine how retarded DH came up with this idea..
RoGH	2013-03-05 02:31
Starting from the bottom: yes, you may choose other runes. About wd vs barb: have you played vs wd without hex? E: we dont want anyone to quit because of the rules, help us and run some tests with or without inspiring presence, im standing on a position that its not a must to ban it, leaving old nat and banning wotb maybe is enough.
zee	2013-03-05 02:33
also saw the rules on WD ... that's basically saying WD's should be banned lol you're banning all of the essential skills they need to survive. No hex and get slammed by barbs no pets and get slammed by DH IMO, don't alter any rules to skill restrictions. It's fine the way it is now. Ppl that are crying are just not geared/skilled enough or haven't found the right specs.
zee	2013-03-05 02:37
Yes please do more extensive testing before proposing with skill restrictions. if you are on Americas server I will be more than willing to help. On the note of banning WOTB vs. WD with no hex ... that's fine ... BUT WD's will then get screwed so hard ... you have to understand that Hex is the single skill that saves them vs barbs. without it no matter what they do they will not win.
devilek666	2013-03-05 02:39
another thing, banning inspiring presence propagate only 1 tactic....kamping and waiting for 2 crit rends within preparation cooldow...lol even half naked dh would win this matchup... as for testing I own predsr every match we play cause I out gear him and he is very bad at kitinng..on new rules I don't stand any chance..so now imagine I play with guy like Majestic..LOL
predsr	2013-03-05 02:42
It wasnt the the kiting that made you win the matches, it was mostly my bad judgment calls when i see you on low hp, wether to blow my prep to chase to try get the finishing blow or not If there are those 'imba' kiters, and i would only think it would be that legacy users, possible suggestion is not allowing brooding and battle scars at the same time
DaRkE	2013-03-05 03:06
[color=red]I have done extensive testing WD vs BARB, No Hex No WOTB really makes the matchup a joy for both sides its a very good modification to this specefic duel. It does not 'nerf' any side but make the match more consistant and precise. I have duelled alot of demonhunters aswell with natalya's soul and wrath from 350 to 525 k dps. I just did duel with Lilith , Barbarian versus DH, 10-3 for the barbarian. To clearify I have done excessive testing with both mannercookie and majestic in the ptr realm aswell. [/color]
Lilith	2013-03-05 03:24
Stop crying all the time. Be a man and if u lose with your really good gear, when aother barbs with weaker items wins that mean u have to work at your skill. Sad but true.
Iria	2013-03-05 03:26
You went 10-3 with or without Inspiring Presence?
DaRkE	2013-03-05 03:27
You went 10-3 with or without Inspiring Presence? [/quote] Without
zee	2013-03-05 03:36
You went 10-3 with or without Inspiring Presence? [/quote] Without [/quote] is this on EU? Would like to see you do the same vs. a couple of DH's in Americas. No hex vs. barbs .... have fun getting getting 1 - 2 shotted by HOTA. You may have tested vs. MC on PTR but a lot of his specs/gear setups have changed since then.
DaRkE	2013-03-05 03:56
Unfortenatly my friend that is not possible at the moment, but without doubt regarding any game or genre top players in different regions are always at approximatly the same skill level. The builds also develop in all regions not always in the same direction but always for the better. I think standalone this argument is not valid.
Euronymous	2013-03-05 04:33
It would help others to evaluate your testing if you posted the chars involved and state the main class of the testers. No offense, but I find it hard to believe that one can use multiple chars ("tested extensively wd vs. barb", "tested natalya's soul and wrath") to their fullest potential. Also you are changing a lot more than just "no wotb, no hex" in that match-up. Most barbs as well as WDs agree that this will lead to more fun duels because playing with a 2min CD that gives you a 15s window to kill your opponent is stupid. While testing this, it looks like you found out that it's too hard for WDs to take down a high HP barb with tons of regen and relentless. This is probably true, but I really don't get your solution for it: No spirit vessel for WD means no second life and about 15% higher cooldowns on spirit walk and horrify. Also no shield, but you can't afford to use a shield anyway vs. barbs because you will lack dps. Barbs will just say fuck regen (inspiring presence), stack enough dps to 1-2 shot and go for a quick kill with HotA. They don't even have to be careful about when to engage anymore because there is no Hex. All WD can do is spirit walk and fear once (maybe stun once with a 60s cooldown) and then pray that the barb won't come near them for the next 12s. So if you felt that in "no hex, no wotb" barbs are a little superior, the additional rules certainly widen the gap. My suggestion would be that you test changes similar to "barb vs. wiz", i.e. reduce the mobility of barbs a bit. From a barbs point of view with sprint marathon and charge it almost looks like WDs are moving in slow motion.
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 08:42
Kite skill cost 8dysc+4dysc next jump, so 2 jumps=12dysc. All new nat users have 70-80 MAX dysc, so it's 5-6x2=10-12 jumps. After that we can have again 10-12 jumps if we don't use SS, and after this 20-24 jumps we are defenseless without dyscypline or jumps to kite for 45 seconds, so you are wrong with "endlessly kite"... maybe legacy nat users can do that but it's not my problem - set rules against new nat users and legacy nat users;]
kaio	2013-03-05 09:45
I thing there is samthing wrong on words thx to point it out. I tested vs keen and blud but both use shield (I'll ask athers why banned also vs wiz) With shield and those rules duels end all with wins on both sides and really close. I'd like to test with on arena instead on forum with a post and also I think u shuld speak with blud and keen and ask them... To make it clear for all: No1 here is tring to make rules for his own chracter... If rules are set this way is cose we tested them on arena and not on forum (ofc wz vs wd there is a mistake on shield and we will fix it) To all: get out of there and test !!! Find new tattics and come back with feedback :)
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 09:55
My class with new nat don't get any serious nerf, I'm just angry that if you don't ban pets for WD and Inspiring Presence for barb I will be forced to buy A LOT of gold for money and try to convince some old DH to set his good legacy set. It's not good to force ppl to search&buy items that Blizzard deleted from game drop;] Legacy nat users can kite all the time - we not, legacy nat users can spam ss - we not - that's main reason why all barbs and WD consider DH like "OP" enemy, but it's possible only with legacy set. For example: Jump cost 8dysc, second jump 4 dysc - legacy nat users can use one jump 0,5s and after that he have 2s +60 speed from passive->next jump 0,5s +2s +60 speed. 5 seconds kiting cost 12 dysc, and they regenerate 2dysc/1s from set +1dysc/1s normally = 3d/1s. In 5 seconds they will spend 12 dysc and gain 15 dysc;] If you don't want to ban items like legacy nat set just make rules against new nat set and legacy nat set - for example new nat users are near to impossible to kill equaly geared barb with Inspiring Presence, but legacy set users can kite them all the time and they have a chance, we not.
Iria	2013-03-05 10:05
I find much of these topics funny. I do quite well with my non-legacy Natalya's set. If Inspiring Presence gets banned, and WD's pets/shield get banned, I will likely go completely unopposed by anything other than a better DH. Even Mystical, the best legacy Nat DH I have encountered in Americas, struggled with me and there were some duels which were luck based in that dodges became the deciding factor. I think Cyon might now be the best legacy DH in Americas since he invested billions in the very best legacy Nat set lol. Also, we have other very good non-legacy DH: Myon and Revrac who do very very well against anything! I am trying to follow in their footsteps and at least get into the top 10 DH in Americas eventually.
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 10:36
I have no problems with legacy set DH - with Lilith who have a lot better eq (Lilith manti cost 6x more then my all items) i losed 3:5 last 2 fights. I'm only saying that legacy set give an advantage compare with non-legacy in duel against for example barbs, and it's not fair to force ppl to buy items banned from game drop;]
devilek666	2013-03-05 10:46
Green Darke I beg Your pardon, but tell me, where in a league You are placed? What gear do You have? oh sory,. one of You doesn't even play in a league. You said, that You wanna do testing on high end gear but all I can see, that You balance with Your average gear against average DH gear. Saying that You won with legacy and non legacy nat, could be true but this doesn't proove anything..Cause You and green are both far away FROM TOP END GEAR.. Another thing, You don't wanna ban gear, but You just banned my and other barbs 4b+ gear who invested into items that give me big relentless zone and I can kill things in this zone...now i would need completly new gear...is that balancing? Did You bother to watch a link I posted? MC changed his gear A LOT since PTR.. I'm highest ranked barb in this league and no one listens what I think...If You make such a stupid rules I will go to another league, so less skilled people can be ranked higher.. Green You can stop crying now DH will be op. any good DH will be undefeated now. So atm if DH loose against non inspiring presence barb is really retarded dh.. p.s. You don't even  listen to DH's..some of them already said that this change is a Joke. You didn't even bother to balance between legacy nat and non legacy nat..
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 10:58
@Devil: this topic was made to get feedback from players. I'm playing and you too, we both can express our point of view. If you weren't in rule dev team so ask admins why (as you said in your opinion you are best barb here then you should develop rules;]). "any good DH will be undefeated now." - in first league WD were undefeated and that's why admins must set new rules. If DH will be OP in second league they gonna change rules. Where is the problem? PvP in d3 just started, it needs a time to develop good rules, maybe first we will test it in next season? No only cry "If You make such a stupid rules I will go to another league"?:)
devilek666	2013-03-05 10:59
I see..you just wanna be on top next season :)
Mr.Mag	2013-03-05 11:01
a short pre-2nd season tournament to test this rules is a must.
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 11:04
If being in top was my priority I could buy 6-8b gold now, in next 10 minutes, but suprising it's not my priority:) Just playing here because farming is boring and I want to know how far can I go with items earned from playing, not from chinese boters:) You really think that being in top on site with ~300 users will be something to be proud?:D I'm writing here because i'm just tired with hit&run barbs.
VimeR	2013-03-05 11:14
I decided write more about new rules for barbarians. 1. barb vs barb - nothing has changed. Barb mostly play with 2 hand weapon 2. barb vs dh - before barb had the advantage. Now i think is aligned, hard to fight with old nat set but you can win. 3. barb vs monk - nothing has changed 4. barb vs WD - Most interesting for me. Im happy with removal hex. Now I don't need use Wotb. And  “Spirit Walk” or “Spirit Vessel” vs “Inspiring presence” is good deal. Now duels vs WDs will not be annoying like before. 5. barb vs wizz - wizzard I think is weak in pvp, need of reinforcements with all classes. New rules for barbs are good. Need to consider a new tactic, not to defend our class but think about balancing everything.
DaRkE	2013-03-05 11:25
[color=red]Remember that theese are a propsal of the rules for season 2. They are released to the public before the season start to create a phase of test and constructive feedback. ---------------------------- --------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- ------------------------------- The goal of d3cl is to create a united and joyfull pvp community so please try and work towards the rules and look for options, for example can i replace inspiring presence with 25 % armor?* I think no one benefits from just pointing out flame and hate towards eachother without legitimate reasoning behind the statements. Testing / Gear setups / Player skill determination / win / loss ratio with you and that player before the changes. [color=white]------------------------ --------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- -------------------------------[/color] / TRY TO DUEL MANNERCOOKIE TRY TO DUEL MYSTIO US WITCH DOCTORS ARE JUST SO BAD EU BARBS SUCKS / [color=white]----------------------- -------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- ----------------------------------[/color] Skill level of the player base cross regions and classes are usually appriximatly the same, regardless of directions and strategies you found to be cleaver for your class somone else might have found another way that is aswell good. This has been proven in many strategy, rpg and moba games it is actually a direct line for all games. [color=white]---------------------- --------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------ --------------------[/color] This is not regarded constructive feedback and will most likley be ignored and if you do however have valid points, this kind of behavior does not help to create a solution and even can make you look kind of stupid.[/color]
kaio	2013-03-05 11:39
+1
error	2013-03-05 11:59
+1
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 12:03
+1 [/quote] +1. I know that this post may be consider like spam, but it's only way to agree with someone:P
error	2013-03-05 12:26
My class with new nat don't get any serious nerf, I'm just angry that if you don't ban pets for WD and Inspiring Presence for barb I will be forced to buy A LOT of gold for money and try to convince some old DH to set his good legacy set. It's not good to force ppl to search&buy items that Blizzard deleted from game drop;] Legacy nat users can kite all the time - we not, legacy nat users can spam ss - we not - that's main reason why all barbs and WD consider DH like "OP" enemy, but it's possible only with legacy set. For example: Jump cost 8dysc, second jump 4 dysc - legacy nat users can use one jump 0,5s and after that he have 2s +60 speed from passive->next jump 0,5s +2s +60 speed. 5 seconds kiting cost 12 dysc, and they regenerate 2dysc/1s from set +1dysc/1s normally = 3d/1s. In 5 seconds they will spend 12 dysc and gain 15 dysc;] If you don't want to ban items like legacy nat set just make rules against new nat set and legacy nat set - for example new nat users are near to impossible to kill equaly geared barb with Inspiring Presence, but legacy set users can kite them all the time and they have a chance, we not. [/quote] I have both sets and I've tried any combination of sets and tactics very extensively in DH vs Barb. With the new set taking down a good skilled and geared Barb is just impossible because of [u]resource starvation[/u]. The only alternative is using a legacy set with 20% lower DPS and 20% lower EHP. As a legacy nats user you won't believe the ridiculous amount of time you need to take down a barb [u]without making any error[/u]. We are talking about [u]every round lasting 15 minutes[/u] or longer, no kidding. Maybe you are superman but me, phisiologically speaking, after 45 minutes of paranoid aiming and microing like there's no tomorrow, can't stand a full challenge. While barbs can just run arround for 20 seconds and remedy any mistake they did. In my country we call this unfair exploitation. There's no fun in such long encounters for me. Non believers check this video [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHffLOEfNkE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHffLOEfNkE[/url] and bear in mind the barb isn't even playing cat vs mouse.
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 12:51
+1 error - that's what i have in mind:) With old natalya you can kite and hit (and remember that this barb from movie don't use sprint! with sprint we can hit max 1-2 times from long distance and run) and with his hp regen is very hard to kill even with old nat. With new nat it's immossible with this hp regen.
devilek666	2013-03-05 13:47
My class with new nat don't get any serious nerf, I'm just angry that if you don't ban pets for WD and Inspiring Presence for barb I will be forced to buy A LOT of gold for money and try to convince some old DH to set his good legacy set. It's not good to force ppl to search&buy items that Blizzard deleted from game drop;] Legacy nat users can kite all the time - we not, legacy nat users can spam ss - we not - that's main reason why all barbs and WD consider DH like "OP" enemy, but it's possible only with legacy set. For example: Jump cost 8dysc, second jump 4 dysc - legacy nat users can use one jump 0,5s and after that he have 2s +60 speed from passive->next jump 0,5s +2s +60 speed. 5 seconds kiting cost 12 dysc, and they regenerate 2dysc/1s from set +1dysc/1s normally = 3d/1s. In 5 seconds they will spend 12 dysc and gain 15 dysc;] If you don't want to ban items like legacy nat set just make rules against new nat set and legacy nat set - for example new nat users are near to impossible to kill equaly geared barb with Inspiring Presence, but legacy set users can kite them all the time and they have a chance, we not. [/quote] I have both sets and I've tried any combination of sets and tactics very extensively in DH vs Barb. With the new set taking down a good skilled and geared Barb is just impossible because of [u]resource starvation[/u]. The only alternative is using a legacy set with 20% lower DPS and 20% lower EHP. As a legacy nats user you won't believe the ridiculous amount of time you need to take down a barb [u]without making any error[/u]. We are talking about [u]every round lasting 15 minutes[/u] or longer, no kidding. Maybe you are superman but me, phisiologically speaking, after 45 minutes of paranoid aiming and microing like there's no tomorrow, can't stand a full challenge. While barbs can just run arround for 20 seconds and remedy any mistake they did. In my country we call this unfair exploitation. There's no fun in such long encounters for me. Non believers check this video [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHffLOEfNkE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHffLOEfNkE[/url] and bear in mind the barb isn't even playing cat vs mouse. [/quote] From vide You posted what we can see?? That Barb is constantly chasing DH with 5-20% life and from time to time is able to land 1 rend..barb is not dying cause have relentless and inspiring presence...this udel is veryt long BECAUSE is very CLOSE matchup..now take away inspiring presence and how this match would end? barb slaughtery... can You show me a video of testing with high lvl barb vs dh without inspiring presence?? cause all I see is +1 from numerous DH's. i think that more reasonable change would be to take away relentless instead of inspiring presence.
Lilith	2013-03-05 14:14
So if i lost with sin im retarded? Come try test new rules but if u will lose with retarded dh u will be super retarded^^
error	2013-03-05 14:29
We don't need a video, just understand those [u]facts[/u] vs equaly skilled and geared opponents: 1- New Nats DH vs Barb:   - Barb wins no matter what.   - Vast majority of DH are New Nats. 2- Leg Nats DH vs Barb:   - Stupidly long rounds, 15 minutes or more. (Where's the fun in this???)   - Barb has advantage:       - DH can't make any error.       - Barb can reset the encounter via hide and regen.       - DH is prone to make errors because of fatigue.   - If the barb can't win switches to Cat vs Mouse stalemate. I really wonder what makes you think otherwise. But [u]something has to be done[/u] to balance Barb vs DH encounters, don't you think?
devilek666	2013-03-05 14:29
Lol, my gear just got banned and You want to say if i won't win with handicapped legacy nat DH I'm retarded :) good DH's are laughing of You atm  :)
devilek666	2013-03-05 14:37
You just admit..Matchup's were very close and something need to be done..So You took core skill from Barb that many barbs invest billions of gold into it witchout touching DH..that's balance? I see there is no point in further discussion with DH's that make the rules and compete in league.
Lilith	2013-03-05 14:38
Your gear banned? What u mean? Btw  show me that good dh in eu who laugh at me:)
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 14:41
At last... you're immune to logical arguments like a concrete wall, so I agree that further discussion with you is senseless. in rule dev team was DH, Barb, WD, Monk and Wizz so... Vimer don;t have any problems with this changes, barb from dev team too.
RoGH	2013-03-05 14:45
Ladies, dont act childlish here, we all want to develop some fair rules for all matchups, thats all. Play some more duels, test our draft rules, give us more feedback, use smart arguments... And even if some rules which you dont accept will stand in final version, there is always turning back, if next season ( or some tournament before that )will show that there is some big imbalance in matchups for example in dh vs barb in favor of dh, there is no problem to change it next season or even before it. Im happy that we already have some nice feedback and spicy discussions, thats great, but chill a bit ;)
error	2013-03-05 14:49
You just admit..Matchup's were very close and something need to be done..So You took core skill from Barb that many barbs invest billions of gold into it witchout touching DH..that's balance? I see there is no point in further discussion with DH's that make the rules and compete in league. [/quote] Ok, I will simplify this so you can understand. Your Win/Loss score in the league vs DH is 13/2, this is a [u]87% success ratio[/u]. Now you have 2 options: 1- Keep this obvious trolling up. 2- Admit some balance is needed.
KNHO	2013-03-05 15:24
I´ve just posted this @ the "Legacy Nats" Topic. I quess it´s also belonging too in this discussion. I got the new Nat Set, and i am fighting a lot of Barbarians. If you look @ my profile, i got not the absolutely top gear, but it´s still far away from average. Im sure that i am not as good as Lilith or Mysticalz @ the moment, and i got to practice a lot more....but, i only can agree with Green here. The duels vs Barbs (Painsup, Sprint, Rend, Chicken, Regenerate) <--- Standart style nowadays, is just making me mad. When i hit them hard, they just sprint away and regenerate, i am forced to chase them and waste all my discipline to get a "Maybe" kill, if i can´t kill him...he just fucks me up, coz im out of disci. Ofcourse i just can say "F... you", i don´t chase you, but then he will everytime come out back from behind the walls with full hp, and the game starts again. The duel lasts so long, till he lands 2 lucky rends, for the cost of all my 158 discipline = Dead. I would very appreciate if the experienced non legacy DH´s give me information ( How to) about their dominating vs Barbarians, i am allways willing to learn.
devilek666	2013-03-05 15:33
You just admit..Matchup's were very close and something need to be done..So You took core skill from Barb that many barbs invest billions of gold into it witchout touching DH..that's balance? I see there is no point in further discussion with DH's that make the rules and compete in league. [/quote] Ok, I will simplify this so you can understand. Your Win/Loss score in the league vs DH is 13/2, this is a [u]87% success ratio[/u]. Now you have 2 options: 1- Keep this obvious trolling up. 2- Admit some balance is needed. [/quote] take a note that I lost 10 all together..so 2 looses against DH gives 20% of all looses..that's 1/5..there is 5 classes so I think my Barb vs DH is in a right place.. I agree balanced is needed but this is just a face palm. I think that You should Ban berserker in this matchup instead of inspiring...or if You take inspiring presence, You should ban Preparation skill from DH cause now it will be basiccly like this: aggresive DH chasing kamping barb. if You get hit, You use preparation and run around map waiting for cooldow..Barb's won't be aggressive anymore cause few of Your shots can kill them + if You add stun runes, it's just 100% death....they will kamp and hide.
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 15:37
Bitch please... use passive "Juggernaut". You are so prO and you didn't know it?;)
devilek666	2013-03-05 15:43
Bitch please... use passive "Juggernaut". You are so prO and you didn't know it?;) [/quote] Bitch please...Why You don't want to listen other solutions? You guys just want ban core skill of barb and that's it..You don't consider relentless or berserker...Just this and shut up..Juggernaut instead of armor without life regen?? good luck with that  :) why You don't take anything from DH, just from Barb?
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 15:48
Yes, I agree with you, we want to ban core skill that makes PvP unballanced:) First time I must agree with ya. As far as I know you from your posts you want to ban SS in DH for sure?:) EOT for me (with devil ofc).
Euronymous	2013-03-05 15:56
I know they said they don't want to ban gear, but one has to realize that banning certain skills has the same effect. You have to maximize the potential of your gear around skills. If I translate your comparison from above to the new rules suggested I get Legacy nats vs. Barb: DH wins no matter what - unless barbs find a completely different gearset for a couple of billions that is as effective as the inspiring presence build to stand a chance - vast majority of previously new nats DH will buy a cheap legacy nats set to get easy wins vs. barb New nats vs. Barb: possibly balanced - lots of barbs still have to re-gear because it doesn't make sense to have 200k HP if you have no %HP-based regen anymore I believe it makes more sense to just ban legacy nats in that match-up. Few DH will have to change to new Nats (most probably have a set stashed) and Barbs will have a chance to win with some adjustments. An alternative to banning the set would be "if DH uses legacy nats, barbs are allowed to use inspiring presence". I just don't see the point of banning skills that you build around or that make or break a class. Have you looked at changes like movement speed caps? If you think back to D2 rules, all match-ups had different movement speed caps. I'm no expert at legacy nat DH vs. Barb, but maybe it would be sufficient to slightly reduce the Barbs movement speed? They usually play with 24%+marathon? How about 12%+marathon for a test?
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-05 15:57
hum ... i can understand devil somehow its maybe a problem of gear/setup i never fought vs him but i think he has top highend str/vita gear that is most expensive atm. Vimer and i have more passive lifereg on our gear so we think the new rules will be okie. If i had 500 lifereg and not the 2500-3500 i use atm i would also feel like needing new barb-gear. just my 2 cent ^^
predsr	2013-03-05 16:09
I think these are both kinda false, cheap legacy nats wont win vs barbs, played lots of games yesterday, both of the top barbs won most of the games, the only barb i won (approx 10:6?) wasnt even his main, and i doubt his gear is even near the tier as the top barbs i faced
Iownyou	2013-03-05 16:13
1)I think u must olso ban archon whit the skill that explode for 1600 weapon domage this skill can oneshot a full tank barb in 1 hit and is not so easy to dodge 2)I agree whit euronimus for legacy set ban but i add that barb must olso have wotb banned vs dh sorry for my english i know it suck :-P gl hf all
predsr	2013-03-05 16:16
I dont see wotb being that much of a game breaker vs dh, tho, no idea agasint a non legacy
Crensh	2013-03-05 16:17
Just my two cents from the perspective of a monk: DH still has quite a big advantage being able to move twice as fast as a monk, invisible/immortal most of the time with nearly infinite resources regeneration. I personally did not find the "bunker" gameplay that OP compared to other DH's mechanics. Overall this set of rules seems like a step forward but I was kind of hoping to see some restrictions which would limit the kiting and favor actual fighting.
Blud	2013-03-05 16:22
OK, add me ingame, I need BARBARIANS to test rules. WD vs DH rules =  JOKE.
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 16:24
Only legacy users can move all the time faster then you, they spend 12dysc to run with +60 speed and jump twice and gain in the same time 15 dysc. Most of DH with new nat can run faster then you only for some time (to end of dysc). Pls guys if you saying something about DH write if its new nat or legacy nat, because they are 2 different kind on gamestyle and we cannot make one set of rules for DH.
Lilith	2013-03-05 16:25
Yea... one mistake and im dead cose of low survi:)
Blud	2013-03-05 16:25
I haven't understood completely the thing about pets. If both are banned then there's no way a WD can beat a equally geared DH. From my testing with Captain, banning dogs should be enough versus DH. And thats pretty much it. Banning shield, hex or horrify, spirit walk or spirit vessel and both pets it's a joke. Don't know who came with these ideas, but to stop rage you should rename the topic to "suggestions/ideas for future rules, please help us testing."
devilek666	2013-03-05 16:26
Yea... one mistake and im dead cose of low survi:) [/quote] 1 mistake? Really? How about preparation? All i wrote was regarding legacy DH. Do You know guys how balancing occurs in real life? Like in production lines? there are small changes made over time. What You did is a huge class breaking change. Euronymous get a good example, by let's say banning 12% MS in Barb vs New Nat DH, could be a good attempt..However banning inspiring presence is banning people like me who spends billions on gear with high str-vit peaces...that's just NOT FAIR...You can't force people to sell all their gear and come up with new set of items without touching other class, this is not balancing, this is nerfing...there are other ways to balance that not require that dramatic changes..
error	2013-03-05 17:02
I'm happy to find some constructive approaches to solve the current balance problem. Let's make some testings with those proposed solutions and find what suits better with the common interest of the competition. I think we have to [u]shorten duels[/u], too long rounds are not OK because they are not fun. Limiting MS% may be a possible solution to avoid excessive kiting and Cat vs Mouse stuff but these are tortuous grounds because it's either a skill or gear stat. It has to be tested until we find that MS% threshold. We all know some regear must happen because the current state of the game is not balanced. My opinion is that we should focus in limiting the less quantity of gear per class. If we don't do that people wont play because it's not fun. To accomplish this we should focus in skill limitation first and then gear or stats limitation. Maybe we should ban 1 dh skill and 2 barb skills, or 1 barb and 1 dh, or whatever combination... [u]But we must find something that works with the total average of matches[/u]. The total Win/Loss average of matches between all classes has to tent very close towards 50% ratio. League class balancing rules will be wrong until this is accomplished.
Euronymous	2013-03-05 17:46
I think these are both kinda false, cheap legacy nats wont win vs barbs, played lots of games yesterday, both of the top barbs won most of the games, the only barb i won (approx 10:6?) wasnt even his main, and i doubt his gear is even near the tier as the top barbs i faced [/quote] It's not about how YOU play against some barbs. No offense, but from my experience against DH it is probably the class that requires the highest skill to succeed (movement, aiming, resource management and so on). How come that on the US server there are DH that can beat almost any barb without rules? With gear comparable or even lesser than yours. Now imagine them playing vs. those barbs not using inspiring presence. Also keep in mind that most barbs in Europe look up to the barbs from the US, so it's not like barbs on US are noobs. Some of the US DH already posted in this thread how easy it will be without inspiring presence. That's what I often see in this thread and what the rules are mostly based on. You have to look at the bigger picture, not jump to conclusions as a result of your own limited testing. European ladder: WD>Barb>Monk>DH>>>Wiz Top players from US state: Barb>DH>Monk>WD>>>Wiz Both 1.07 D3. Basically we all agree that Wiz needs to be buffed*. Barbs>DH on both realms, not by a huge margin if you look at the top players. All the other match-ups seem to fluctuate a lot. It's more of rock-paper-scissors there than true class imbalances. In my opinion it's absolutely stupid to balance these right now except for some really minor tweaks. *but, if you read my previous posts, in a more balanced way. Taking away all the defensive abilities of a class just so Wiz can kill them easier doesn't make sense. @Blud, do you really think that fighting Wiz without Spirit Walk, Pets and Hex/Horrify result in a fair and fun duel? @error Movement speed: If that would really benefit the duel and make it more balanced I don't think any Barb would have a problem with getting rare bracers instead of lacunis. It's just a single piece of item (that any decent barb should already have anyway) that doesn't make or break certain builds. I disagree that the average of matches between all classes has to tend to a 50% ratio. In a small league like this it's highly possible that a class is underrepresented with a playerbase that's just not at the top-level with their gear and skill yet. Like I said above it's really misleading to base rules on the current standings of the european league or some hours of testing between the admins.
Lilith	2013-03-05 17:46
Maybe ban mf or gf? MS it's much less importants. IMO inspiring presence should be banned. Another way is ban for nerves of steel and/or/ relentless, ignore pain. Wanna get imba life regen and kite all the time? No problem but u must be beatable.
Blud	2013-03-05 17:57
@Euronymous, I never said it's fun,  but it gives wizard a possibility of beating a top WD. This possibility atm doesn't exist. Or at least, I haven't bumped into any wizard that gets me into trouble. But, I couldn't agree more with you, Euronymous, there's not much left to say. People are drawing conclusions from 20 minutes of testing and, imo, very biased. Nobody wants to be nerfed. But the truth is, and I've been testing all morning, these rules are trying to balance "imbalanced characters." First, people should look at their characters and try to come up with the right gear & skills. When this is achieved, rules will be easier to make. I know tanky dhs that use 1h & shield that would be a big problem with some coherent rules like "banning dogs and spirit vessel". Not current suggestions with massive nerfs. In addition, banning inspiring presence and making people's gear useless is a fail. You can't take such measures.
jointit	2013-03-05 18:11
If there is a way to not ban inspiring presence - please bring it. If there is a way to not break the wd class in the way euronymous suggest - please bring it. One thing for wd vs barb is to only ban hex and wotb, and leave the rest untouched. Thoughts?
Lilith	2013-03-05 18:23
One thing? Didn't wd must choose between spit walk or spirit vessal?
kaio	2013-03-05 18:32
for DH vs WIZ I bring u some facts: http://www.twitch.tv/mcp42 tested with Mcp and with Vilhelmi#2575 we use no boar no preparation heal and we add  [i]SS set to 1 sec and not 1.5[/i]... we make really decent ballanced duels and with Vilhemi (lowered geared than McP ) I made a 5-4 with last round 3k life remain...
Lilith	2013-03-05 18:40
@Kaio U mean DH vs WIZZ?:p
jointit	2013-03-05 18:44
One thing? Didn't wd must choose between spit walk or spirit vessal? [/quote] Let me rephrase - an idea could be to have 1 rule and only 1 rule in wd vs barb = no wotb for barb, no hex for wd. Rest is go. I want suggestions and solutions to prevent the total rebuild and break of classes. I agree that banning inspiring presance can be fucking devestaing if you built 200k hp, zero regen and suddenly cant use the passive regen skill and for a wd to have his entire build not nerfed, not balanced but broken. So again - suggestions for solutions and I just had 1 for this setup as something to throw out there to work on. So far its been too much defensive arguments and meaningless namecalling. Lets get passed that as quick as possible and start getting productive instead.
predsr	2013-03-05 18:57
@Euronymous, who are these DH's and and which barbs are they playing? Id like to see some streams if anyones got any.  if your getting these stats directly from the US league, i dont think theres enough playerbase to get any real stats.  You cant compare Eu/US players, its irrelevant if Eu barbs look upto US barbs imo, doesnt mean they possess the same kinda skill, but theres alot of other considerations that matter such as skill/tacs/gear from both opponents We need another PTR! :D
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 19:02
If rules don't ban inspiring presance all new nat users must buy legacy set and only kite 3h waiting to logout of opponent. So you don't want to force barbs to stop playing hit&run with their OP hp regen but you want to force all DH to buy legacy nat set? Seems legit... I have enough of this, everyone shoud see that regenerating 5khp per 1s with barb sprint and his defense skills is not balanced and break a lot of duels, I just bought the most cheaper legacy set that I found and I will kite 3h if some barb challenge me without banning inspiring presance, but this isn't a fight, it's a lose of time for both sides.
jointit	2013-03-05 19:23
If rules don't ban inspiring presance all new nat users must buy legacy set and only kite 3h waiting to logout of opponent. So you don't want to force barbs to stop playing hit&run with their OP hp regen but you want to force all DH to buy legacy nat set? Seems legit... I have enough of this, everyone shoud see that regenerating 5khp per 1s with barb sprint and his defense skills is not balanced and break a lot of duels, I just bought the most cheaper legacy set that I found and I will kite 3h if some barb challenge me without banning inspiring presance, but this isn't a fight, it's a lose of time for both sides. [/quote] this is exactly what Im talking about. Drop the attitude and get constructive. We all want balanced duels, but maybe banning inspiring presance isnt the way to go?
MysticaL	2013-03-05 20:19
In my opinion, I think removing inspiring presence is a handicap for barbs. If a DH user has good impale aim, and the barb has no inspiring presence, impale crits vs. the barb become very unforgiving, imagine 30k impale crits. You need 12-15seconds to regen just one crit? AND you have to chase a legacy nats user while being forced to take more impale crits? The real "problem" with this matchup is not gear or balance in my opinion. I think Barb vs DH is pretty balanced. The problem is the SKILL level required to play. It is extremely easy for a Barb to just sprint in non-linear patterns and try to cut off the DH with Leap/Charge. It is SO much harder for the DH to kite, manage discipline, react fast to leaps/charges, have unpredictable movement, need to have godly impale AIM (you never shoot at barbs, you shoot where they WILL be), etc. I think this is just something that the players have to accept and overcome. It's very hard and needs skill, I know (and  this is the most frustrating fact about DH vs Barb, that you have to outskill to be on even grounds). But if you interfere with this by giving barbs a handicap to accommodate DHs that have a hard time, then the "good" DHs will not lose to barbs
predsr	2013-03-05 20:27
How about giving Sharpshooter a miss vs barbs? Your first 2 hits(providing they ~1.5) sec will be guranteed crits, its very easy to burst down a barb once you been kiting/they been hiding for 10 secs or so latest barbs duels go something liek this for me at the moment, .go > 2crit impales(+dot crit) > same again > barb uses iron skin > wait it out > chase barb with more guranteed impale crits
MysticaL	2013-03-05 20:38
Also I want to add something about this rule: [quote]-  In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” the Witch Doctor is not allowed to use “Summon Zombie Dogs” or “Gargantuan”.[/quote] There is no WD that can win under these conditions lol it's just impossible vs. a DH without zombie dogs, you guys are removing the core skills of all the classes :/
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 20:39
So now change set to new nat, go and make it with this set:) ... ... ... Impossible? So without baning this skill 90% of DH with new nat are forced to spend ~2kkk for average legacy nat? For me they can make as euro said: hp regen passive is allowed if opponent use legacy nat.
predsr	2013-03-05 20:41
There is no WD that can win under these conditions lol it's just impossible vs. a DH without zombie dogs, you guys are removing the core skills of all the classes :/ [/quote] I can see that happening.. yet to test, but also they aint allowed a shield also right?
predsr	2013-03-05 20:46
@green, whats your EHP in your gear?
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 20:47
I'm now farming, after run I'm gonna change items and check. edit: tfu, edit 2: 785k unbuffed. http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/green-2172/MojaLasia/7091272
Lilith	2013-03-05 20:51
So now change set to new nat, go and make it with this set:) ... ... ... Impossible? So without baning this skill 90% of DH with new nat are forced to spend ~2kkk for average legacy nat? For me they can make as euro said: hp regen passive is allowed if opponent use legacy nat. [/quote] 2kkk^^? I can sell u main set for 2kk and than i will buy 1 another and save 1kkk for new gems;p
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 20:55
@Lil: maybe not 2kkk, but 1kkk is a lot to much to force 90%dh to spend:) I was searching for good legacy armor and... with max dysc affix it starting from 100-200-300kk+ max to 1kkk for only armor;) Try to find helmet like yours on AH, you gonna be suprised.
error	2013-03-05 21:05
And this is how it should be. Good players should win don't you think? Now good players lose and it is not normal. We are talking about averages, the total average Barb vs DH encounters should be about 50/50, we don't need more rock/paper/scissors we've had a whole season of this. Obviously we don't either want Barb vs Legacy Nats DH to be 0/100. It has to be 50/50 for legacy and non legacy. And yes, it is difficult.
Kitikonti	2013-03-05 21:42
Guys u cant ban skills/passives for the league purposes. Even this stupid  lol skill hex of wd (die in hell nubs) or wotb of barb (lol at ppl who leave game to reset coldown). Even if it wont lead to abuse from people making the rules, it is too hard to balance and will lead to massive rage from ppl from league and unsuscribing. This is blizz job (save rage for them). It is easier to balance making limits for gear stats/pieces/sets like it was in d2 (those imba dps sets can be sill used in pve). If u ban skills it will lead to rage + loss of immense amount of gold that some ppl spent for pvp (for example barbs massive vit/health regen gear useless for pve, classes like dh or monk didnt changed almost enything on conversion from pve becouse of their class mechanics/skills and skills like vault or smoke screen wont be banned fo sho). If u make stats limits it will bring more ppl to pvp becouse of cheaper gear and skills will be weaker thx to that. For example inspiring presence for barb. Make rule that barb cant have more life than for example 100k, bam! regen wont be so important and dhs wont cry (pussies) but! dhs cant have more dps than x and bam! impale wont 1 shot that barb. I know i know those with imba gear will cry but it will be minority and they can still pve with it. Blizz fcked up that stats on gear matters so much it should have looked like in d2. U c? I fixed pvp for u. Saved ur time. You can worship now great me! Or instead we can w8 for blizz balancing and other pvp stuff (lol) unsuscribed from d3cl drinking bear.
Damx	2013-03-05 22:15
@kitikonti if u would follow the forums, u should know that item limitations were considered but that idea didnt went on
devilek666	2013-03-05 22:30
nothing to add...even top DH's saying that taking inspiring presence will kill barb won't convince other dh's. that's so funny :) someone brought up another important aspect.. atm most of DH use their farming high dps gear for PvP...barb need completly different setup..now You want to make this setup worthless... I did check Vimer gear and it turns out that he has life regen on most peaces instead of vit..That's a cheaper option but atm this kind of items are very rare...I think he was able to face dh on new rules only because of this items and fact that he wasn't fighting agains top guys like Mystical. anyway, You wait and see how many barbs will play in next season and what will be win ratio between dh. atm in top 10 we have 2 barbs and 2 dh's.in top 15 4 dh's and 4 barbs...can it be more even? and all of them lost quite a few games with dh's.. how do You think it will turn out with new rules? (tomas and iownyou play as monk and WD so i didn't count them) Euronymous made a good post about 50/50 joke ratio :)
devilek666	2013-03-05 23:51
1 more thing... I remember when I started league and lost with predsr standing no chance..I had 12% MS that days..when I siwtched to Lacunis I start winning with DH's..I just checked and both Lilith and predsr use rare bracers, not lacunis...and they were using it in past when they defeated me..so when I had 12% MS i was loosing with DH's..game change is now when I have 24% MS and DH's still have 12%...that's just plain stupid..how can top dh run with 12% ms?...they should all switch to lacunis and then make balance ideas... Is there any TOP DH willing to do test while they have 24% MS instead of 12?
GREEN2172	2013-03-05 23:53
Omg man, you really have no idea about this game and other classes. 90%dh have MS in ina pants and nat boots, we don't need lacuni. Where did you bought so much gold?:D
predsr	2013-03-06 00:26
Ive never used lacuni in my life, your making stuff up now.. 12% from boots + 12% from pants, you lost to me because i was playing vs barbs 24/7 on ptr so i had the experince advantage back then
ricebowl	2013-03-06 00:36
Can we ban the chemical burn rune on impale in Monk Vs. DH?
predsr	2013-03-06 00:41
I think possible ban of Sharpshooter might even things out
RadL	2013-03-06 01:17
I would like to ban tempest rush vs barbs. No way to catch them when they run away for minutes then trying to 1 shot you. If they cant 1 shot you it will be a looong game...
Blud	2013-03-06 01:23
I think it's going to be so hard to balance things out, but it might be possible. However, we can't take this approach of removing all the emblematic skills of each class. You guys have gone too far.. The rules WD vs DH are just nonsense, I wonder who the hell came out with those ideas xD. I know you guys are doing a great job, and I appreciate it, but those are so imba. Balance can be achieved being subtle... WD vs Barb, removing hex and maybe voodoo slam dance, and WotB might be enough WD vs DH, removing dogs might be enough. WD vs Wiz, removing either SW or SV. WD vs Monk, removing either SW or SV. And things like this... You should go step by step, in my honest opinion. Adding new rules if balance hasn't been achieved. I wonder who tested the rules and came up with these ideas because they are not realistic. And be careful with the rules because you can't make people's gear useless... That's blizzard's job lol. So banning the use of shield, as well as banning inspiring presence, shouldn't get to the final list. If a barbarian has 3k regen on gear, then inspiring presence is banned, or something like this, but don't ban this passive straight away because some people have been gearing for this, and you just wipe their effort. Besides, don't get personal and start offending people, for that we can all go to the official forums :).
N0F3aR	2013-03-06 01:37
Ok, i did try the new rulz against some dh (i am a Barb) so maybe this gonna help: - If DH use Legacy nata, then Barb can use the passive "Inspiring Pressence" - If DH and Barb have similar gear, and DH has no Legacy nata, then Inspiring Pressence may be disabled/ or enebled if both sides agree. - If DH outgear Barb, then Barb is allowed to use "Inspiring Pressence" - If Barb outgear DH, then "Inspiring Pressence" its not allowed. The problem here is that some1 has to tell who who outgear or if the gear is similar. Maybe for TOP END game fights, "Inspiring pressence" should be allowed since DH has like 300k dps unbuffed. And now, PLS , do not blame, lets all decide what will be best for both sides.
kaio	2013-03-06 01:54
We can tes wd vs wiz with ur ideas but imo if u use pets wiz got no way to deal damage And I have tested it u can be sure but open to make it again with u For the rest ofc I agree with u on not doing what we most hate from blizzard!
devilek666	2013-03-06 02:07
Green, You are abusing me now. You are an admin and You are making personal trips here. I know this game through out from matematic point of view. I out gear You on every conspect of this game, both PvP and PvE...Never bought a gold nor anything on rmah...I made billions by flipping on AH, not by drops..You think I don't know about inna pants, while I use them for farming? And have 540k dps as Barb? Lol man..You are such a retarded average DH whose crying about 2bilions and not having money for legacy nat...2 bil is nothing. This rules are retarded, already majority of top players said that..but all You want to do is make top players from medium players..I want to fight in competitive league with top players..but this rules are a joke....it's too many big changes at once..each small change affects game and gear in so many ways that is hard to describe... I still don't understand why You don't wanna try 12% MS ban for Barb in DH vs Barb ? It would require only 1 item to change, not complete gear setup for something that won't be in use in any other league.
GREEN2172	2013-03-06 02:08
@Blud: "WD vs DH, removing dogs might be enough." I agree - we can make this small change and test in next season (or tournament) how balance will change. I have average gear but I have felling in 90% fight with WD that "grrr, I almost killed him!". If WD will not hide between dogs\gargantuan it should be fair fight, but we must test it. But I agree that nerf WD vs DH is too much. @NoFear: "If DH use Legacy nata, then Barb can use the passive "Inspiring Pressence"" Dunno what is opinion of legacy nat users about that but for me sounds good. "- If DH and Barb have similar gear, and DH has no Legacy nata, then Inspiring Pressence may be disabled/ or enebled if both sides agree." IMHO this cannot be implemented, because every DH and Barb will say that enemy is outgearing him - ELO rank system provide that ppl with low/high gear cannot play with each other, so it's unnecessary. In my opinion "Inspiring Pressence" should be banned vs non-legacy DH. Devil is still writing here that DH can easily kill barb without "Inspiring Pressence", but pls show me in our rank (with a most bigger player base then any other leagues/tournaments) a non-legacy DH that can kill Vimer or Devil with their sprint+rend+hp regen tactics. In Vimer profile he didn't lose any fight with DH, Devil losed only with legacy nat users - that is good argument for banning this skill vs non-legacy DH. "And now, PLS , do not blame, lets all decide what will be best for both sides." +1. Problem is if rules force ppl to change items, for example banning ""Inspiring Pressence"" will results in changing items on Devil's character, but not banning ""Inspiring Pressence"" will results in buying by all non-legacy DH cheapest legacy set only to kite all the time, not even tring to attack or kill with tanky hit&run barbs. We all have to give up something to reach a compromise. BTW: I saw today 2vs2 match on McP stream, this idea is very interesting and looks fun:) edit: @devil: "Green, You are abusing me now. You are an admin and You are making personal trips here." Again you are wrong:) If you have any problems with me - PM me, I decided to not spam here, because we all want to develop balanced rules. And yes, I'm and average DH, I'm not ashamed of it:) I just have different priorities in life than spending thousands of hours on a game or a real money for gear, but everyone do what he want:)
Crensh	2013-03-06 02:22
As a monk(who do not use TR in pvp) I can say that the situation is exactly the same with trying to catch a barb on sprint. All barbs I dueled cast rend and then run away using sprint.
devilek666	2013-03-06 02:48
Just did some diabloprogress digging.. Top DH's for PvP : 320k+ unbuffed 1,6m EHP...3,5-4m PvP dummy http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/scorpion-2883/Yan/17113771 http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/kamhul-2452/Clemenza/637337 and when I look into Lilith profile: 220k dps unbuffed, 560k ehp, top 1000 pvp dummy (800k !!! - it's ~5 less than top DH!)..LOL http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/lilith-2321/Widmowa/1306251 When I wear me gear, I'm top 10 pvp Dummy barb in Europe... Now, you make nerfs, based on fact that I preety much own every DH in this league, even the best legacy nat DH..but come on, where DH from this league stands to guys from top of the rankings? ofc top 10 pvp dummy barb will own top 1000 pvp dumy dh..who is wearing inna pant's and cheap no resists no vitality witching hour for pvp? that's not good, You need ehp, and not die from 1 crit rend. anyway, this just proofs, that this "balancing" is made by admin who played few games and decided to give it a go...once again I will say, balancing should be done on the highest lvl of gear on server, not by people signing to league..
ricebowl	2013-03-06 02:55
As a monk(who do not use TR in pvp) I can say that the situation is exactly the same with trying to catch a barb on sprint. All barbs I dueled cast rend and then run away using sprint. [/quote] Exactly.  I find it very humorous that a barb of all classes is complaining about hit and run tactics.
ricebowl	2013-03-06 02:57
I think possible ban of Sharpshooter might even things out [/quote] Crit chemical burns are like crit haunts except the DH is 10x more mobile and invincible than a WD.  Chemical burn is the issue.
Lilith	2013-03-06 03:17
Devil you are really funy guy:) ,,ofc top 10 pvp dummy barb will own top 1000 pvp dumy dh..who is wearing inna pant's and witching hour for pvp? that's not good, You need ehp, and not die from 1 crit rend.'' Scorpion top 1 pvp dummy lost with u. I with 2k pvp dummy, inna's and witching hour won 5-2. bitch, please!
Lilith	2013-03-06 03:22
I think possible ban of Sharpshooter might even things out [/quote] Crit chemical burns are like crit haunts except the DH is 10x more mobile and invincible than a WD.  Chemical burn is the issue. [/quote] But chemical burn can miss(basic dmg no DoT), and i must aim perfect to hit u:)
Blud	2013-03-06 03:26
Actually, that information, even though Devil presents it quite arrogantly lol (no offense bro), is water clear, and a hint that some players are neglecting EHP in order to maintain DPS or Mobility (Legacy nat). 520k EHP on a DH means around 250k EHP when facing DoTs. I have more than 3million EHP buffed + 2.7k regen from gear keeping 200k dps... If you are going to balance things around such huge differences then we are going to have serious problems. DHs might be the most played class but for a reason I do not know, you don't see many tanky ones, I only know one (Gieri). This guy uses a shield versus me and I would have serious problems versus him using some rules. He has sick res, he even stacks specific res (poison and physical), very nice regen etc. etc. You would be surprised about my haunt dmg versus him. You've stated several times that balance will be made at same level of gear. But same level of gear does not mean same amount of Gold. You have to understand that PvP gear differs from PvE gear. Just as an example, I use Blackthorne boots versus DH or Monks, one of best in Europe, and they cost me 35mil some months ago. PvP is about EHP & DPS. And please, check the 8 first positions of the league... I now there must be some balance because atm I feel bad when I duel versus Sin or Tomas, good friends (monks) since they have a really hard time. But just inspect the profiles of the first 8 in the current league... I've played all of them and most people are really well geared, with many different combinations depending on the situation and the opponent. Only class that really stand behind is Wizard with current rules, well.. no rules. DHs must understand that 500k or 250K REAL EHP will not work in many matchups. So having an alternative set for some particular cases might be an option.
Euronymous	2013-03-06 03:36
After some further consideration I think even those measures are going too far. Why should a WD play without some signature skills in all match-ups? The first thing I'd look at is if it's possible to even out match-ups with rune changes. These are the changes I'd like to see tested. My goal is to preserve the playstyle of our class without destroying/favoring certain sets of gear: vs. Barb: - Hex: no rune allowed. - not allowed to use a shield Barb vs. WD: - no changes Reasoning: The ladder and latest results shows that barbs are catching up quickly. They were behind at the beginning because they had to completely regear for pvp. No hex rune means that barbs take only 10% more dmg instead of 20% while hexed. No shield is to prevent stalemates or lame tactics like item-switching during wotb. I was an advocator of "no hex, no wotb" but right now I doubt that it's working at a high-end level, and that's where you want to balance. vs. Monk: - no changes / possibly no shield allowed Monk vs. WD: - no changes Reasoning: It's a very close match-up. The sample size of high-end duels in this match-up is small, but good monks usually take a few rounds of witch doctors. I'd give it time and see if monks are able to come up with a better tactic or start winning those match-ups with more practice. If anything I'd ban shields for WDs so they can't start to tank monks. vs. DH: - Haunt: only allowed in combination with the runes "resentful spirit" or "grasping spirit" - Zombie Dogs: no life link rune DH vs. WD: - no changes Reasoning: Again, this is a close match-up that can go either way at the highest level. Witch doctors have a huge advantage vs. unexperienced DHs, but that's not what rules should be based on. Zombie dogs with no life link rune means that they can still act as a meat-shield, but won't absorb 10% of the damage dealt to witch doctors. Another important factor is that banning dogs would ban a whole WD archetype (zerodog WD), which is prevented that way. Haunt with 2s duration or slow isn't forcing the DH to cast SS multiple times. vs. Wiz: - not allowed to use a neck/possibly other more or less important slots, depending on the % you want to nerf WD DPS/EHP - Zombie Dogs: no life link rune Wiz vs. WD: - no changes Reasoning: Right now a huge disadvantage for Wiz. It will be tough to balance it skill-wise because pretty much any skill is extremely dangerous for Wiz. That's why I think banning a single piece of gear might be a good solution as it acts like a flat reduction of the WDs offensive and defensive capabilities. There are no amulets to build around, all WDs will take a similar hit from it. My old WD would have been nerfed by 33% in DPS and 15%EHP. The WD gets to keep his arsenal of skills but for a Wiz it feels like fighting against a mid-level WD. And if you look at the stats, a high-end Wiz like kaio is able to beat lesser WDs regularly. Zombie Dogs limited for the same reason as vs. DH, meat-shield but not damage reduction. vs. WD: no changes Reasoning: Not much to say here, let WDs figure out how to beat their own. This is what I would try at first, very subtle changes. Feel free to test them if you like.
Blud	2013-03-06 03:48
Some interesting ideas Euro, I'll test them tomorrow. I can't draw any conclusions atm WD vs Barb. I did no hex no WotB and won like 95% of the duels but I only tested 3 barbarians. I still need to practice with Vilmer. I know removing spells is going to be disappointing but I don't see anything else brining some balance effectively.
ricebowl	2013-03-06 05:36
I think possible ban of Sharpshooter might even things out [/quote] Crit chemical burns are like crit haunts except the DH is 10x more mobile and invincible than a WD.  Chemical burn is the issue. [/quote] But chemical burn can miss(basic dmg no DoT), and i must aim perfect to hit u:) [/quote] You don't have to "aim perfect" to hit me.  Impale has a high travel speed and you can cast it while under smokescreen (aka while you're running at 60% increased movespeed from tactical advantage).  The dot does upwards of over 70k on crit even if the projectile gets dodged.  It's utter bullshit, just like haunt, except DH's can go invulnerable and kite 100x more effectively.
MoKKaL	2013-03-06 08:42
the only problem that I (wizzard) have is the following: 2handed (skorn or similar 2handers) crit DOT's (haunt, rend, exploding palm) i dont mind, if DH's Impale damage is high too - because most of the time i have some okish chances against that. u have to aim with it, and it can be dodged! none of the dot's above can be even dodged ... a nice example can be one of my last matches: i was leading 4-1 against a WD (all fights were damn close!) and LOST 5-4 cause he took out his skorn the last 4 fights. no matter what i did - more ehp, more damage, balanced setup - i died too fast due to damage over time, when my mirror images werent rdy. balanced setup: 4770 armor, 783 AR, 50k life, 2750 lreg --> pvp ehp: 669.000 --> buffed dps with 1.2 aps: 244.000 defensive setup: 5970 armor, 852 AR, 65k life, 2400 lreg --> pvp ehp: 1.072.000 --> buffed dps with 1.2 aps: 170.000 offensive setup: 4600 armor, 737 AR, 46k life, 2470 lreg --> pvp ehp: 581.000 --> buffed dps with 1.2 aps: 260.000 (more crit damage involved) id consider my gear as not too bad, even though my life isnt that high. but due the fact, that i have decent armor, ar and lreg (non buffed from skills!), my ehp is still high compared to my low life. the problem with those 3 mentioned dots is ... u cant even dodge it (im on 26,6% dodge aswell) so, if a dot crits with a 1hander - im fine ... the damage is NEVER that high compared to a 2-hander, because the avg damage on the main hand weapon is alot lower! i dont have to mention, that i almost cant beat high ehp, high lreg barbs :D in this case my gear (dps) is a tad too low. (but im ok with that) please take this 2handed, high crit damage DOT's out thx fo reading :)
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-06 09:02
according DH vs Barb: I never used max 24% run so far. I hate lacunis and like my rare bracers and use only 11% speed on boots. And from my point of view its still okie vs DH. I´m still able to kill all top 20 DHs even in 2-handed mode. Ofc not always and surely not 5-0. But minimum 50% win-chance. I dont think you break the barb if u cap runspeed at 12%. And you wont break [u]my[/u] Barb by banning inspiring presence because i can have >3000 lifereg on gear.
predsr	2013-03-06 09:19
I think possible ban of Sharpshooter might even things out [/quote] Crit chemical burns are like crit haunts except the DH is 10x more mobile and invincible than a WD.  Chemical burn is the issue. [/quote] I think the issue here is that Sharpshooter allows 100% crit on first hits, i can shoot you, and even if you dodge, you will get hit with a CRIT dot, but also, the sharpshooter buff will remain at 100%, i can kite and shoot again and keep crit dotting you unless you dont dodge, and when you dont dodge you will get crit implaed and crit dotted, Sharpshooter basicly allows hit and run tacs, i think this might blanace it out vs barbs also.  this is all from legacy nats pov btw
devilek666	2013-03-06 09:55
Scorpion lost, because he was playing bunker style with completly different gear setup...he had 1/2 of this dps and I was switching whole gear before WOTB, and I was able to kill him only because we were bored..I start watching movie and he finnaly came off the island..I lost with You, cause  I didn't use berserker..Anyway, You see that even with inspiring presence, and lack of PvP items, You could beat me. Maybe I'm arogant, but You guys must understand that for PvP You need different gear..You need balance in DPS/EHP. Most of DH's don't do this cause they have smoke screen, vault etc...Sometims when I fight with Sin or tomas, 1 peace of item decide if they 1 shoot me or not...Like SoJ..If I put it on, I can't survive Sin(Darke) blue bell. DH's usually run with Ina Pants, Witching Hour, legacy nats with poor stats, stone of jordan..You do insane dmg and You ignore ehp and that's Your choice..but when barb gets to You, you are in trouble..that's the way it is until You find balance..Some peaces of gear are the best in Europe..like my spear 250vit, 1120 dps and 90% cdmg..I have few other extremly effective peaces for different kind of situations...I don't use ANY ITEM from farming in PvP. another thing, I did some calculations and the reason why Vimer had succes with You or others on new rules is... He has some amazing life-regen peaces..He can stack 2500-3000k life regen with ~100-120k hp. That's how much life regen You will have with inspiring presence at this point..Thus he has +25-30% armor from passive instead of inspiring presence.. Now when i fight with DH, i have around 160k hp and ~3,8k hp regen, but with 30% less armor..I believe it even out.. So as soon as I get top tear life regen items, situation will repeat..glass canon DH's who don't have enough DPS won't be able to kill me..You will come up with another set of rules banning another thing cause inspiring presence won't be enough to cover gear difference between 2 players.. cause that what You wanna do, make rules, so medium geared DH can compete with top geared barbs.. that's not the way to go.. p.s. I played against Blud on new rules yesterday...He basicly face palm me..When WD uses fire bats with echoing fury..barb stand no chance in coming towards him. 395k dps + SoJ..without inspiring presence 1 haunt have eatem me alive..let alone off-screen spirit barrage.
kaio	2013-03-06 10:44
First of all I'll respond only at post not out of topic and that call me in cause for Wiz rules. I'd like to see less blame.. There are many things I'd like to say but this is not the right place... @Euronymous: first of all I'd like to thx u for ur help even if u don't have a WD any more and even if u are not in league for now :). As streaming show I'm hardly working to test all advice that this comunity give to me and more streming/videos will come to prove that and show u what we find. The idea of banning a single slot or in general items is really last chance we try to use cose it's really really hard to check if a player equip or change items during the fight... and even if u see it u shuld have a video showing that... or a judge in arena that follow the duel... and as u know he will get hitted by spells and fuck all the duel. It's normal that a top geared wiz win vs a medium geared WD (if both sides are similar skilled). The problems is if in a duel there are no possibility to counter the ather (like a top wiz vs top wd now) I'll try that ban on dog rune. I'v made some duels with blud and with keen and I think both agree with me that duel was pretty funny and ballanced and it's the best we founded for now but ofc not the best we can make. So continue to hit me with new ideas and I'll test them but prefere no items bans
GREEN2172	2013-03-06 10:50
Ofc we can make char like this: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/rain-6984/TriggerHappy/20704248 237k life with passive 1% hp reg + sentry 1% hp reg = 2,37k+2,37k=4,8k life regen without items, and with items it can be 5k+ Why we don't do it? Because our class don't have AoE Dota with 500-700%+ dmg like yours;] We MUST have more DPS and less EHP. Another thing: for DH the main aim is to have a lot of dyscypline OR dysc regen - we are losing a lot of EHP using natalya's set.
devilek666	2013-03-06 11:04
Ofc we can make char like this: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/rain-6984/TriggerHappy/20704248 237k life with passive 1% hp reg + sentry 1% hp reg = 2,37k+2,37k=4,8k life regen without items, and with items it can be 5k+ Why we don't do it? Because our class don't have AoE Dota with 500-700%+ dmg like yours;] We MUST have more DPS and less EHP. Another thing: for DH the main aim is to have a lot of dyscypline OR dysc regen - we are losing a lot of EHP using natalya's set. [/quote] Do You know what word balance means? You point extreme case where guy has 42k dps and his PvP dummy is 1000... That's Your argument? I let this to comment out for other players.
Lilith	2013-03-06 14:01
@devil ,,I lost with You, cause  I didn't use berserker..Anyway, You see that even with inspiring presence, and lack of PvP items, You could beat me.'' So how vimer and drake(worse gear than yours) won with me without berserker and inspiring presents, when u couldnt do that only without IP? Both dules looks that: 1. Barb low on hp use ignore pain 2. Barb go up-left corner and to hit him i must come close to rend range. It's barb's bunker style. Many monks do same. 3. If i come i got rend, if crit its really bad, if i w8 he why for cooldown of potions, ignore pain, jump and charge. Im really hothead and I can't w8 ages to my chance so i go and take rend;p Maybe I'm noob, but this map really pisses me off. If left up corner will be dead zone i can agree with no nerfs for barb.
predsr	2013-03-06 14:13
PvP dummy dont mean shit in comparing player skill
mannercookie	2013-03-06 14:42
I haven't read the discussion in the thread so far since I've missed 10 pages and I don't really want to read through it. Here's my two cents on the rules of this league so far. WDs basically are useless in this league, even without their nerfs the WD class is a very weak PVP Class, I don't see how nobody on this forum sees how bad the WD class is at the highest gear levels even without these nerfs. Taking away inspiring presence on a barb would mean a barb would have to completely re-gear to play in this league. A PVP-tuned barb set is based around high hp, which scales extremely well with inspiring presence and relentless, it is by far the most efficient way to build a barb. The league's rules force a barb to pigeon hole into gear he would never use outside the league. The changes made vs wizards doesn't fix anything, they are still useless vs most classes even with these "balance" changes. The monk nerf is really LOL, I'm sorry but no good monks go cheat death and all monks must have serenity, so yeah this rule is pointless since it's really not even a rule... The rules of this league also don't dictate how skill selection will go, the person who enters chapel first and allows the other person to spec afterwards is at a disadvantage. There are no rules in place for stale-mates, except a really vague rule about avoiding fights. I really don't understand why one of the weakest class received the most nerfs, while one of the best PVP classes received no nerfs. These rules don't really reflect the matchups accurately, I don't even think anyone in the league in EU has fine-tuned pvp sets to be able to test vs each other and see how the matchups are at a very high gear/skill level to dictate which classes need nerfs/buffs. Buffs on DHs, these changes make no sense to me really. Also the fact that DHs don't have any nerfs vs monks make no sense either since DHs are very dominant in that matchup. The DH / Barb matchup is very balanced unless one outgears the other, taking away inspiring will pretty much make this a one-sided fight for the DH. Nerfs on WDs, if you think about how their class works are one of the weakest classes in the game, if you fail to see why that is, your looking at D3 PVP wrong. Gotta look past their current damage output and realize how weak of a class they are once their damage is mitigated or manageable.
Blud	2013-03-06 15:18
@MannerCookie How do you handle perma fear againts a wall, 400k dps + soj & mojo = 35% Elite + 22% SB with 425% weapon dmg skills? Or 270% continued DoT that perma fears you against a wall? Ignore Pain 7 seconds. How do you handle that for the following 23 seconds? I told you I look forward to dueling you in the next PTR or when u have a better barb in EU, but there's no need to be so arrogant and come here and call us Noobs. That said, the Barbarian is an awesome class and I've always repeated that it might > WD. But I've also seen many of your videos and you get pwned so much from shitty WDs so it's not like your barbarian is a demigod xD. From my experience it might be true that most good barbarians beat WDs, but there aren't many pvp-focus WD you know? From your comments it seems that the Barbarian, the Monk, the Wizard and the Demon Hunter are complete different classes in the US. Damn, I knew Blizzard pays more attention to US forums, but this?
Crensh	2013-03-06 15:26
mannercookie you look at WDs from barb's perspective. WD is not "useless" vs monk for instance. I do agree with you about the DH tho. Was surprised to see no actual nerfs to DH.
Lilith	2013-03-06 15:30
We no have top gear, so what we know about pvp? WD is very weak on brawling and its the reason why in top two are Blud and Keen, when Kaio with one of best class(wizz) for pvp is at 23 place^^
Kako	2013-03-06 16:07
@mannercookie (ur nickname is kinda sarcastic) u think u are so cOOl with that barb, stacked ehp like crazy, with 70k dps can kill all, coz of 900% dot imba skill, with passive regeneratin 2% hp everysec, with perma sprint? nope, ur not. in matter of balances, i think that removing dot skills (rend, haunt, chem burn at impale) will balance matchups ALOT
devilek666	2013-03-06 16:20
+1 want to see barb killing DH without rend  8) You have no idea about what You just said...
Kako	2013-03-06 16:25
same story goes for dh, legacy nats have shity dps, cant kill barb in 2-3 hits, non legacy are running out of discipline pretty quick, and barb just need to rend once with crit to either kill or use 3x smokes + preparation
Blud	2013-03-06 16:27
OK guys, let's pretend this guy never came here and let's keep testing and trying to balance things out. My experience from testing vs Kaio: You can inspect both of us and see that our gear is on the same level, with only one key difference, I have 3.8k regen from gear and passive. This makes a huge difference but aside from that, our stats are very similar. WD vs Wiz. Only one skill would have to be looked at and that is Zombie Dogs. However, perhaps NOT the whole skill, just the 10% DR rune, but this needs further testing. I welcome all good wizards in league (if any, cos most wizards pussy-quit) to add me for testing. Some Wizards are starting to come up with effective builds, so those of you getting wiped by WDs, use your brains. I'm not going to start explaining what builds are effective vs WDs because thats your job. It might not be so easy as going youtube "wiz builds" xD. This is also a message for those of you crying about bans and nerfs. There hasn't been enough testing, so do not panic. I don't think the admins will include rules that nobody agrees with after serious testing.
Lilith	2013-03-06 16:45
Blizzard should make fix bug that we can't dodge dot's. Then we no need to ban skills.
Blud	2013-03-06 19:23
LOL?? Not being able to dodge DoTs is not a BUG. It is intended to be this way. If they change this, then dodge must be reduced to the point in which most DHs have 35%ish dodge. Just think for a second mate... How can you dodge bleed? It doesn't make sense, does it?
predsr	2013-03-06 19:27
I think he meant impale maybe, if you dodge the initial imaple hit, it will still dot, makes no sense right?
Lilith	2013-03-06 19:32
LOL?? For example I use impale vs you. U dodge impale but dot will deal dmg. this is lol. Why i can't dodge rend? Its strike with weapon when i can dodge jump, meteor, and another aoe skill or autoaim skills? It have no sens
Blud	2013-03-06 19:35
OK some more feedback from some hours of serious testing... I mostly did it with Devil, best geared barbarian in league, but also with Iownyou, pretty well geared too. We tried many things: - No hex                                vs      No WotB - No hex, no Spirit Vessel        vs      No WotB - No horrify, no hex, no SV    vs      No WotB I always managed to come up with a build that left Devil with no chance at all. WDs have so many stuns... Even without those 3 core skills in most WDs specs I managed to come up with so many builds that just irritated Devil cos he could do nothing. Even if people like MannerCookie say that WD suck, it's because they probably haven't dueled creative and good ones. The guy says he doesn't need WotB to beat a WD but it's just not possible. I doubt he has more EHP than Devil, and his dmg wouldn't be a big problem. So our conclusion has been: - WD cannot use 20% dmg HEX, all the other runes are allowed. - Most important thing: swapping gear during combat is forbidden for both sides. - WotB is the core skill for a barbarian, not only when it's active but also when it hasn't been activated. Knowing that a barb has WotB makes the WD act carefully trying to keep distance and trying to use the right timing to dps barbarian down and force him to go to Berserker. So duels actually become really fun without the stupid gear swapping thing. Obviously both sides have to be similarly geared, but it was said that balance should be achieved on high end level. I know some will say "how do we know people don't swap gear?" well... We are all adults here, trying to create a competitive league, so let's behave like that, shall we? Besides, we can also take screenshots of their HP numbers if we see a drastic increase in our opponent's mitigation. @To the Admins: Please, contact all top players in the current league to develop serious rules. What you have done so far makes no sense at all. I appreciate the job you are doing but they are plainly wrong. At least the ones I've tested thoroughly so far, WD vs Wiz, WD vs DH and WD vs Barb.
Blud	2013-03-06 19:39
The thing of impale is most likely a BUG, if the main hit doesn't do dmg then the DoT shouldn't apply. Same for Rend, you should be able to dodge initial hit, but the bleed should apply entirely. All those skills are actually HITS, not DoTs. It makes sense to dodge a fire ball falling from the sky, but how the hell do you dodge a bleeding effect... Damn, man, you are bleeding lol. That said, DoTs might be a bit OP versus Dex classes atm, but also due to a lack of All res, Armour and Regen, particularly from DHs (even more when legacy).
Lilith	2013-03-06 19:47
,,The thing of impale is most likely a BUG, if the main hit doesn't do dmg then the DoT shouldn't apply. Same for Rend, you should be able to dodge initial hit, but the bleed should apply entirely. All those skills are actually HITS, not DoTs'' I mean that what u said, but i suck in english and can't use right words:) So you agree with me that players should be able to dodge skills, that active DoT efects?
Iria	2013-03-06 20:10
I really wish there was a way to compare EU and NA players and have them duel like in the PTR. Mannercookie is in the top 10 PVP players in Americas (out of all classes). I think he is #1 Barb in terms of skill and has VERY high end gear. He is the only Barb I know that beat Viri, the Barb-destroying Monk in Americas. Also, he is the toughest-to-defeat Barb for DH, and I mean top DH like Mystical, Cyon, Myon. I can maybe try him sometime when I get far better gear, but I don't expect to win w/o legacy. Revrac (#1 PVP Score DH) can only stalemate with these super tank Barbs by going full turtle. I also agree with Mannercookie on the point of stalemates. There is nothing in place to prevent them or declare a winner. If there was a way to track damage, I would say the first to take 1000% of their max HP in damage should lose. Also, something should be put in place for gear-swapping players (who usually use macros). I think this provides an unfair advantage, especially if the swapper's strategy is to use some powerful skills with a long cooldown and then retreat with super EHP/regen gear while waiting for the cooldown to end.
DaRkE	2013-03-07 00:48
I dont know exactly how to explain it but you can see this 2 barbarians: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/N0F3aR-2714/hero/21182091    http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/mannercookie-1362/hero/25507035 N0F3aR performed alot better versus me than mannercookie playing his eu barb, alot better. I had 5-2 and 5-4 duels vs N0F3ar and 3 times 5-0 vs mannercookie. Playing monk. With this specefic barbarians , not his main tho.
devilek666	2013-03-07 00:53
MC build his EU char for 200m and has paragon 0  ;)
Lilith	2013-03-07 01:50
Coockie have 33k dps. LOL
DaRkE	2013-03-07 02:00
was 69 a few minutes ago :P I am am just trying to encouruge discussions without arguements that '' all barb eu suck'' really is dhs in eu so bad ? It does not comprehend a logical and constructive rule development.
Iria	2013-03-07 07:39
Yes, let us cooperate to decide on what the rules should be. I am sure the top EU players are very skilled like the top NA players. Perhaps there is a different meta game in each region. Here in the Americas, Demon Hunters have zero problems against Monks and Wizards, these matches are so easy for DH it is very unfair. The NA league has a lot of monks, all of which were very easy pickings for DH. Against WD, the match is somewhat even if the WD stacks a lot of EHP; however, a DH that rushes in with fan of knives and impale can easily fix that lol (assumingt the DH also has some good EHP). Lastly, the hardest match-up by far for DH is the tanky Barbarian. Barbarians (like Mannercookie) have so much EHP and life regeneration that it can be borderline impossible to kill them, even with very high DPS. Their strategy is to retreat into corners until Ignore Pain is ready and then attack, only to retreat again 7 seconds later. They will use cover very effectively and nothing a DH has will penetrate it unless they use hungering arrow or something. Perhaps Mannercookie can link to his videos of his duels against top players.
mannercookie	2013-03-07 12:11
Ok first off, Devil does not outgear me lol, and secondly it's not all about the gear alone. Blud I met you on EU server, and honestly I've seen your gear and your playstyle. You will never have a chance playing like that vs a good Barb, it's only a matter of time before other barbs reach my gear level and start to realize how exposed a WD is to damage. Anyhow, one bad WD's opinion doesn't even matter, I'm telling you guys right now taking away inspiring presence from a barb is redic for any matchup. Barb vs DH, after having played my DH now and halfway towards gearing it, I can tell you the match is much closer than any of you think on EU, there are a lot of viable specs vs barbs as a DH that most of you have probably never even though of up yet. It's just too early to decide this matchup, DH is a very strong PVP class. Barb vs Monk, is pretty balanced there doesn't ened to be any changes really. Either way, any kind of rules like these are all bad imo. It's way too early to declare yourselves masters of D3 PVP and think you know how to balance the game. Good players are still gearing up and starting to think about PVP. It's just too early in the patch/pvp, we haven't seen all viable specs/gear setups come out  yet. The only reason WDs are on top in EU is because the rest of the classes aren't at the same gear level as the WDs in terms of pvp optimized gear. Already too long of a post, I will possibly try the rules out and test it, but pretty sure the WD vs barb fight under these rules will be both classes going full cannon and the fight is over int he first 15 seconds of whether I one shot him with hota or not.
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-07 12:29
@ mannercookie can u give a hint whats the ehp you are always aiming for in pvp ~6 million ? I´m still missing some gear but my way to go so far is 5 mio ehp in 2-handed and 6 k lifereg. Worked very well so far. Only doesn´t break the 14 mio oneshot bells from thomas and sin. (monks) and @ rules don´t really get it you want the dh to be buffed or nerfed ? Since i changed my lifepool from 70k to 160k i do not even need a shield any more vs dh.
jointit	2013-03-07 13:25
Ok lets get practical, this is my barb and lets use him as an example (I kill you if you laugh at my weapon): http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/jointit-2392/BESTBARB/16498633 With better shoulders (crafted with 250 vita, 11% life)  and better amu (same but 200 vita) and 12% bt armor instead of phys res he should have around 200kish HP so like ~7mil ehp and 1.5k regen from eq. With the lowish hp atm relentless doesnt work like it should (the pool is too small) and Inspiring Presence the same. With upgrades he has 200k and then it works better. OK, given that he does have the better EQ (we can replace with 4 piece blackie and str/vita rolls instead of dex where needed, I have those setups too with good rolls) whats the magic that EU barbs dont know about mannercookie? In the build - whats wrong with the barb above ? Get practical. Get straight - so far I´ve only heard that all is crap and EU has no clue, but I have yet to see any actual results from you. Youtube and twitch gives me nothing I dont already know and vs Monk I know you lost ike 15-0 vs SIN with EQ that should have render better results. Your words are getting empty cause you dont put up the results or gear and skill solutions that you obviously think we dont know about. Good things though - These 1.2 rules obviously created a hefty discussion here which is good. ALOT of cards came to the table :)
Blud	2013-03-07 13:34
OK MannerCookie, there's no need to make personal judgements about my playstyle because you haven't really see me play... I dueled for like 20 minutes with your shitty EU barbarian. Come on man, be honest, I wasn't even moving, it was so easy. How can you make judgements about my playstyle from 20min? I wasn't even using the build I need versus good barbarians. I didn't say Devil outgears you. I asked: do you have more EHP than him? Thats unlikely, so it would be a matter of a bit more DPS and same EHP. Not a big deal. Then is all about player skill. It's so easy to be a guru on the internet these days, and go around places criticising (not constructively) other players. Even insulting xD. If I'm such a bad WD, and I play the weakest class according to you, then all the other players in this league are atrocious. So cut the crap, please. You come here with kid-like arguments "EU barbs suck" "WDs suck" etc etc. but I do not see any coherent reason or argument. I'm going to teach you something which is quite basic: when you state something, you must prove it or at least give some arguments in favour, otherwise it's invalid. If you went to school you should know that. That said, I must admit that I totally agree with you about the rules. You guys (d3cl) should take it easy about rules right now. After a lot of testing, most rules you've come up with are complete nonsense. As MC said, players haven't geared to pvp accordingly yet, so give it a time. Besides, we have only 280 players in the league, out of these maybe, what, 10% with high-end pvp gear? Not even that... I would say 5-10 people. I really think that all the rule development should be done carefully and slowly. Step by Step. And please, contact all the top players in the league to get our impressions, because the only one who's doing that is Kaio at the moment.
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-07 14:40
I like your Barb really much and its really near to the Stats that all Barbs try to reach. Can you tell us something about your impressions vs for example blud, keen and  sin? Do you have the same problems like all others in the leaque vs them or can you beat them easily like mannercookie meant - i don´t think so? I also don´t think that we eu-barbs are all just stupid and unskilled. Maybe its a problem of map-using or abusing. I never tried to use the environment so far. The last time i tried i didnt had a chance against blud - maybe there is just no us- wd using 3000 lifereg unbuffed?
kaio	2013-03-07 15:40
Thx :) @IMP-Executioner duelled almost all of the best geared barbs (heroman, Jointit Vimer...) and most of all hide back walls, run to rep life or to restore spells... Using (not abusing) map it's part of the game...
IMP-Executioner	2013-03-07 16:13
@ Kaio, yes ofc i go also reggen  and don´t try to stay in line of sight but i don´t use cornerspots where u cannot be hit by arrows or something like that.
Damx	2013-03-07 16:40
In my opinion rulez should be optimized for all players top and bottom. Ofc it's too early to make such rulez, to early to make fairly any sentences about "balancing" pvp, but dont make few players oracles about the stuff .. the thing is working like it should be, some ppl think about it, then it happens, ppl get rulez, play 1-2 seasons then constructive topics in forums => change or maintaning the rulez by pieces .. Making oracles from ppl always turn out wrong in the end. Especially in pvp leagues. thats my 2 cents ! ps. really looking up too this community! cheers!
Lilith	2013-03-07 16:50
@Damx Its impossible if we dont add some gear restriction and i think thats the only way. PVP league should be based 100% at skill not gear that u can buy if u spend real money or thousad of hours in ah/farming. We should make to leagues. One, with no gear and skill restricion, and one near to 100% balanced for each class.
RadL	2013-03-07 16:56
Using or abusing is a matter of opinion. One game a DH bunkered himself in the island with turrets, I asked nicely if he can stop abusing the map, because I just cant go there to chase him down on that fucking bugged circle with a barb, he answered stop abusing regen... Really is it the same thing from some peoples perspective? I found it hard to believe that they expected me to go in there to die, but apparently this is the case. They are even offended when I run out with low hp. I support to ban such behavior, but I agree with Blud now, changes should be develop slowly. There must be very little experience yet. Also imo some of the changes will effect different results in mediocre gear players, which I guess hasnt been tested. In fact there cant be enough test even with top gear players.
Damx	2013-03-07 17:39
It's diablo3, its not skill, its items that give u the win in the long way .. and it's too early to generalize .. maybe with some actions the most powerfull items will be easy to get for every1 and then we will talk about the "skill", for now lets explore the game - coz like i see in this topic, we know repsectivly to little to just say " hey, its ok! now lets go to beer ! "
eldritch	2013-03-07 21:30
Hi d3cl. Im a barb and only been playing barb ever since back last summer just a few weeks after game release. My opinions about pvp regulations regarding barbs vs other chars: Im happy u trying to get wizard back havent seen many around so cant rly say anything about the changes. Dh has seemed to be pretty hopeless against us so i like the change with no hp reg. Monks burst dmg is a little to high i think in this matchup. Try fix this. Wds its a dumb fight overall they just transforms barbs into a stone, but they cant kill barb, but the barb rarely ever able to hit wd and even if he does it missess a majority of the time. I dont know if taking wrath away is good. They have to many imparing effects. Its still a 120 sec cooldown and a gamble to catch wds who can turn invisible for a few sec and should be able to avoid those 15sec of insanity. Are u suggesting we are forced to go a shit ton of -imparing effect without able to use inspiring presence which is kinda core skill for the whole hp build. I dont feel like wds are hopeless against babas atm. I think removing inspiring either presence or wotb would be an option. There is a big problem with mobility imbalance overall in my opinion. Its highlighted in every fight. Sprint + unforgiving is almost a must vs some build or chars. (sprint to strong?) In terms of electronic sports which are played competitively mobility and positioning always play a huge roll (rts-games,rpg-games,fps-games). Since the pvp map is poorly designed in d3 its pretty hard to get any positional advantaged so it means mobility has to be perectly balanced. I dont know honestly what d3cl can do about this, but I think its important for you to take into consideration when u trying to balance.
eldritch	2013-03-07 22:48
In barb vs there is no need to change only sprint issuper anoying to catch each other. A good 2 hander cuts through a sheild barb anyway i dont feel the necessary change here. Especially if u dont go skorn but a good 2handed rare mace bacause of more raw weapon dmg.
mannercookie	2013-03-08 05:53
First off, I haven't seen a single EHP calc that calculates it properly for barbs @ PVP, maybe for other classes? If you have one that works, please show me because I have yet to see a calculator that plugs in all variables. Even if it were to plug everything in, it still wouldn't be accurate in terms of higher EHP being automactically better. Blud, since I've met you on EU (you were not on PTR afaik) all you do is carry yourself with some attitude that you are truly some exceptional PVP player at this shitty game. Your class is broken, just not as much as wizards are currently and you only win because you are playing players who don't quite understand exactly how your skills work nor how it affects your strategy. joinit, your gear is nowhere even close to mine, please do not compare your pvp dummy score to mine and say we have similar gear lol. Also WTF is this fairy tale of SIN beating me on PTR? Must I go through 120 videos to find clips of me raping his face night after night and him telling me monks are hopeless? You guys don't see me posting I am #1 PVP Barb in the world anywhere do you? No, I don't do that shit and I don't claim to have solved the game. But I will say that I have not lost to a single person in a duel since day 1 of PTR, and when I say duel, me and another player go at it for endless hours trying to shut-out the other person and clearly show their dominance in the match. PTR the moment it opened until now, I have not met a single person who has shut my barb down and I have shut down every single person I've played except the few that was ongoing and we never had the pleasure to continue after PTR (Players from asia, and a few from EU) Half the fun in this game is gearing up your character (Role Playing Game), your already forcing out 90% of the players who would be interested in a PVP-League. You can't balance the game around skills/items, this is not diablo 2, this is diablo 3. I say it again, every match-up I've extensively tested so far has proven to be very balanced, and even with the RNG randomness, the rock-paper-scissor aspect keeps the game in check and always gives the other player a chance even if they are at a disadvantage of skill or gear. Also, there are very few dedicated players who have all three traits to truly make any kind of calls on balancing (Skill, Knowledge, Gear/Gold). Until there are more players who have logged countless hours into trying to solve every match-up, we can't really say with certainty there are any imbalances in current PVP. DH / Barb Barb / Monk I can tell you with certainty these matchups are quite balanced. DH > Monk ALL > WIZ These are match-ups that are very imbalanced. Even with that said, it's hard to say, we need more good players to gear up with PVP in mind and see if they can figure out ways to win the match-ups that seemed handicapped.
Iria	2013-03-08 06:31
I very much agree with the DH > Monk and All > Wiz statements. Really, they need to buff Wiz and Monks need some +40% movement speed skill with an aoe-undodgeable DoT skill lol. Here is my highly opinionated matchup chart: Baba: Strong Advantage to Baba, Even with DH, Slight Disadvantage to Monk, Slight Disadvantage to WD, Strong Advantage to Wiz. DH: Even with Baba, Strong Advantage to Monk, Even with WD, Strong Advantage to Wiz. Monk: Slight Advantage to Baba, Strong Disadvantage to DH, Slight Advantage to WD, Strong Advantage to Wiz. WD: Slight Advantage to Baba, Even with DH, Slight Disadvantage to Monk, Strong Advantage to Wiz. Wiz: Sell Wiz, go buy Baba!
Forti	2013-03-08 09:12
I can not agree that barb / monk are balanced duels. Sometimes I fighting against barb who got more ehp with 80k+ dps. A bit better geared up and he can easy farm me down. He dont even need a 150k hp 4k/sec and 100k dps. 1h high dps + shield and I need much of luck to attack when ignore pain is on cd.. U know how hard it could be? When he always running for us, when I got too less spirit sometimes :P Monk vs. dh is hard, I agree with that. Dh even with new nataly is hard to kill, only with a few lucky and mistakes from dh's. I wont agree that wizzard are unless class. He is strong, but he is hard to play. More that wd or dh (dont tell me dh is hard too LOL). I know some wizzard how can kill me so easy, but they still got crap gear versus. top players on league. wd need ban second live and/or hex. That's all about from me. Peace.
MoKKaL	2013-03-08 09:24
or take the challange (and be depressed from time to time ^^)
KNHO	2013-03-08 11:01
I´ve tested yesterday a lot of duels vs Nofear and Eldritch < Barb vs DH. Without inspiring presence. In my sight it was a balanced matchup without the presence. The most hard thing about this match for me, is to set the final blow. If the barb goes low, > Sprint < ,he goes to a wall and "Round and Round it goes". I experience very hard times to get a good Barb there without spending tons of discipline, and there is allways a crazy rend possible in my face, i have to hit exactly, the barb hits me with AE @the walls. Good life regeneration on items does a good job for the barb too.. If they would use good life reg + the presence, i didn´t ever have a chance, coz the regeneration rate on DH´s most important attribute "Disciplinie" <---sux a big cock. Don´t understand me wrong, it´s makeable vs average Barbs in this situation, but it´s realy realy hard though. Maybe 99% of DH´s in this league are noobs included myself, maybe they are undergeared, i can´t judge this and only can talk for myself. I got 24 ms, 450 k dps, 67 k life, 450 allres when i play vs Barbs. I got realy hard problems even with some that are lowgeared, if they play very well "passive" style like Eldritch. The next thing i´ll test vs barbs is good liferegeneration without loosing much dmg. Just want to see how it works vs rend. Did anyone tested this allready?
Blud	2013-03-08 11:31
MannerCookie, you are hopeless. Everybody was having a constructive discussion about PvP in this thread until you popped in. Please, as I mentioned before, if you know so much about pvp propose some ideas or rules, all you do is state general ideas that most people know. And by the way, you are the only one who comes in here saying nobody has ever beaten you and all this sort of crap. You are the one who makes stupid 2hour-videos about how important dexterity is for a barbarian, to then make another 2h video about how not so important dexterity is for a barbarian. You are the perfect specimen for a sociological study. Diablo 3 might be a shitty game according to you; I can't imagine how sad your life is therefore. And no, I wasn't on the PTR. I was having an amazing 25-day trip around Europe. However, I've dueled endless amount of Barbarians in Europe, not only the ones in d3cl.com. I've dueled all the top ones and there's only one person who's beaten me twice, Devil (let aside his dirty tricks). So unless you think barbarians in EUROPE suck, or people who play them are kids or retards, WD is not so bad a class. And the only barbarians who make me play focused are those using WotB with sick dmg/ehp. Stop being either a liar or a mystic about that secret Barb build/tactic/strategy. If there really is a way to pwn 100% of the times a top WD tell it to somebody in EU. Aren't you an Internet Guru after alL?
mannercookie	2013-03-08 11:47
Just sell your useless WD and reroll. and I've made my input into the rules system, i think maybe about around page 7? You can check my old posts yourself if your curious about my input. I know Devil, he follows my stream, if he was having trouble with you he would've surely asked me, seeing how u just said yourself he wins vs you, there's nothing to discuss? Also thanks for watching my videos, and yes sometimes I may say one thing then change my mind 3 weeks later, why is that? well if you can't figure it out, your really hopeless.
Blud	2013-03-08 11:48
Getting back to Rule Development: Concerning WD vs All, I think there should only be a couple of fixes, and they are still being tested. I need more top MONKs and Wizards. I still haven't found a monk who beats me when I use tanky gear, its just so easy to keep him away and slowed with spiders, and haunt him. 1 crit haunt and u force him to go serenity and then you already won. So we are working and seeing how "banning haunt" would affect the duels. So far I've only dueled Sin and Tomas, so we cannot make assumptions based on such a reduced set of data. But our impressions were very positive. It actuallly made duels versus Monks enjoyable. However, as I said, we need more monks, because there might be monks that get me in trouble even with haunt, I dont know. As for Wizard vs WD.. What can I say, I feel bad about Kaio... He has similar gear to mine and he doesn't even stand a chance if I use all my skills. As I also mentioned, banning dogs, or maybe just 10% DR dogs, could be an option. DH vs WD. The rules that are posted in first page are a complete nonsense. DHs are a really dangerous class for a WD, but obviously it has to have high-end gear and the right technique. Perhaps not allowing to use 4 dogs passive, or maybe not Dogs and Garg, only 1 of these skills, would even things out a bit. I still need to test with more DHs. I lost last night versus Devil for d3cl.com 5-4. What else do you want? I really don't know who is developing these Barb vs WD rules, I would like to get a glimpse of his reasoning behind them. Do not make rules when they are not needed. A rule generally means removing a skill, so it has to be done carefully and avoided when possible. It's like saying, oh we don't like how WD vs WD duels are going, let's remove hex.
Blud	2013-03-08 11:53
Just sell your useless WD and reroll. and I've made my input into the rules system, i think maybe about around page 7? You can check my old posts yourself if your curious about my input. I know Devil, he follows my stream, if he was having trouble with you he would've surely asked me, seeing how u just said yourself he wins vs you, there's nothing to discuss? Also thanks for watching my videos, and yes sometimes I may say one thing then change my mind 3 weeks later, why is that? well if you can't figure it out, your really hopeless. [/quote] I just watched you videos when we talked in EU server a week ago and I didn't realise how short-minded you are. Also I was curious about your statements, so I went there to find out about you owning WDs... To find videos in which you are owned by sacrifice WDs. I had a funny time. I've always said Barbarians > WDs with WotB. Take care mate, and do not get too personal. PS: GZ on your 100 subscribers!
jointit	2013-03-08 13:31
What a hell is up with you man? You´re flipping like crazy here making huge statements about other people and how crappy they are without ever getting into specifics. None of us is out here to win a schoolyard brawl, but your posts bring it to that level. Stop it, you´re a good guy who invests alot of time into this so act like it. I am not interested in you not liking my PVP dummy score as I couldnt care less about it myself. That wasnt the question i asked so I dont know why you bring it up. I took my barb as an example for you to break down and analyze. Im asking you to look at him and tell me whats wrong with him (its a her thou). Yes, a 1200 spear with no ias and 300 vita 100 crit and sock etc would be cool. But whats the flaw on him? 300 vita 12% shoulders, 300 vita 16% amu 280 vita 12% bt armor? Or is there some magic at works? [b]GET SPECIFIC man.[/b] Your posts suggest that everything on EU barbs is all wrong and crap, yet you never say how and why. Im all ear and I gladly listen, IF I GET SOMETHING TO LISTEN TO! :) GET TO THE FACTS.
mannercookie	2013-03-08 14:30
What a hell is up with you man? You´re flipping like crazy here making huge statements about other people and how crappy they are without ever getting into specifics. None of us is out here to win a schoolyard brawl, but your posts bring it to that level. Stop it, you´re a good guy who invests alot of time into this so act like it. I am not interested in you not liking my PVP dummy score as I couldnt care less about it myself. That wasnt the question i asked so I dont know why you bring it up. I took my barb as an example for you to break down and analyze. Im asking you to look at him and tell me whats wrong with him (its a her thou). Yes, a 1200 spear with no ias and 300 vita 100 crit and sock etc would be cool. But whats the flaw on him? 300 vita 12% shoulders, 300 vita 16% amu 280 vita 12% bt armor? Or is there some magic at works? [b]GET SPECIFIC man.[/b] Your posts suggest that everything on EU barbs is all wrong and crap, yet you never say how and why. Im all ear and I gladly listen, IF I GET SOMETHING TO LISTEN TO! :) GET TO THE FACTS. [/quote] I never said all EU barbs are crap, I said EU barbs just haven't reached their ceiling in terms of gear. It's really hard for me to separate the trolls from legit questions these days, as all I get is trolled 24/7. Not to mention you bring up some story about how SIN 15-0'd me (lol?) and you want me to treat you like a non-troll? If you want specific, maybe check out some of my vids? Everything that I've tested is there for you to look for yourself anytime you want. www.youtube.com/mannercookie/ www.twitch.tv/mannercookie/videos/
KNHO	2013-03-08 15:25
Maybe you guys should stop the Cock comparing here, and come up with more usefull ideas. Would be nice if the admins could moderate here a bit and delete the posts that don´t push the main idea of this topic.
Mr.Mag	2013-03-08 16:56
plz keep in mind this topic is about rules not about your duels.
RoGH	2013-03-08 16:58
To make it clear : i have more than 10 years of experience in Diablo 2 "legit" pvp tournaments as player, rules developer, judge, admin, winner (:P) and looser too and i assure you that without referee interference there is no way to execute "no gear swapping rules". Obviously i mean realistic ones. Ban weapons swapping? Probably easier, because its easier to catch it on ss. Just keep realistic and try to dont bother about rules which will leave huge gap for cheaters and bm players. I know that at this point of Diablo 3 pvp there is no way to develop balanced & simple rules for end game pvpers. There is still a lot of the pvp itself to discover and pvp gear to collect. But thanks to those draft rules, suggestions, we are gathering some great feedback and thats the most important thing. And once again: dont act childlish, atm the game is so little about "skill" and most of you are active users of varied forums & communities for so many years that shit-talk should have been long behind you, grow up and focus on what is important kkthxbye ;)
Blud	2013-03-08 17:12
Sorry about the last 2-3 useless topics I deleted them, I'm normally not like that. To be back on topic, A suggestion from Iria: This could be a good start. Note that gear swapping is only a problem vs Barbarians due to the class mechanics.
Iria	2013-03-08 18:35
Played against a high-end zero dog WD yesterday. The matches were pretty even although I should have used Marked for Death instead of Boar and the Hail of Knives rune and maybe then I could have tipped the luck in my favor lol. I think if you remove dogs altogether, some WD will get really pissed as they revolve around this skill!
Blud	2013-03-08 18:55
Yes, I think removing dogs entirely is a mistake. However, it is true that pets are really powerful versus DHs, so I was thinking about this as a possibility: -No 4 dogs passive -Either dogs or Garnatua, not both.
VimeR	2013-03-08 19:16
devoted duel to catch blud when he swapped gear ;)  No offence but this guy still talking about it and can swap all gear in 2-3 sek ( maybe makro )  :D before berseker [IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/2yla102.jpg[/img] after berseker [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/2uzui4p.jpg[/img]
Blud	2013-03-08 19:35
My post from 28th of february. My point is "ban gear switching because it forces me to do it too or I'm fucked."
MysticaL	2013-03-08 19:39
Gear swapping needs to go away permanently it should be an automatic loss if you swap gear. I can buy cheap stuff that costs <10mil gold together and if I use them to swap w/ macros, nobody of any class, any gear will ever kill me... I think it's really important to not allow it for any class This one barb I dueled here on D3CL went MASS eHP/regen gear when he was defensive, and then he consistently swapped in and out with a crit/dps/skorn gearset. Things like this will just become worse if you allow it, and I don't even want to mention what would happen if an actually good player swapped... you just can't lose
Blud	2013-03-08 19:43
Exactly! I totally agree with Mystical. But at the moment there's a league going on, and there's no rules whatsoever about switching gear. So most barbarians are doing it versus me. Since the beginning of the league... Vimer was the first barb that supported gear swapping, he even said in our first duel "gear swapping is player skill, you need to be fast". So, unless I prefer to lose, I am forced to do gear swapping. Unless both parts agree before duel on not to swap.
devilek666	2013-03-08 20:56
All I say is make gear swap rules cause this just brake duels...Even if it comes to weapon + shield would be a great start...believe me, top players 'feel' when it happens and can make screenshots, it's easy to spot.
RoGH	2013-03-08 21:07
Well, imo we could try with banning weapons swap.
devilek666	2013-03-08 21:21
Mojo, Quiver, Orb and shield You consider as weapon ofc?
Iria	2013-03-08 21:22
Above is a quote of mine (to save the time in rewriting) which outlines a measure to prevent gear swapping in battles. I agree with Mystical and Blud that this needs to stop, I know which Barb Mystical is referring to and if I get challenged by said individual I will call for a judge for the match.
Blud	2013-03-08 21:24
I just lost to Iownyou and it was the most stupid duel ever. The guy just literally swaps to all EHP gear when he's out of berserker and he doesnt even bother to attack me for 2 minutes. Just run, run, run like the wind. Twice I killed him when he was changing gear in a corner.... Oh come on, you guys say you have 10 years experience in PvP and you allow these things xD. Of course I swapped gear too, otherwise I wouldn't have won 4 duels out of 5... but it has to be banned. And it has to be banned now, it's a simple update. Weapon and shield/2hander cannot be swapped during combat, or something like this. It benefits barbarians clearly, because they can manage to go around with 20k dps + battle rage + wotb + crits with hota. You also mentioned "prohibitting passive behaviours in duels". So running around for 120secs, sometimes even more than 5 minutes because I don't allow him to change gear, should be looked at too. I think this is clearly the most urgent thing you guys should handle.
Forti	2013-03-08 21:31
is d2 u could swap gear using the second set (weapons + shield etc.). Why u need ban it here? If someone change the gear... change it too. I dont like it.. but guys, u cant prove that.
GREEN2172	2013-03-08 21:45
We should make something about DH legacy vs DH non-legacy. It's simple: DH with non-legacy cannot hit&run like normally with other DH, because enemy have 3dysc per 1s, and we not - hit&run it's 100% death. Only way to hit legacy DH is to rush him and try to kill before we will be out of dyscypline but... every legacy DH know that longer duel give him a BIG advantage, so what they do? Jump->run->jump->run. Non legacy DH cannot rush him, because he is running away, and if we pursuit him we will be out of dyscypline and he not:) This 2dysc/1s set bonus is OP and devs have right to remove it from game, but question is: what we should do with it? Because if we will not do anything every non-legacy DH can sign out of league or buy (1-2kkk) new legacy set (which is removed from the game drop!), and we cannot buy GOOD legacy set like old players have, because IT DOESN'T DROP ANYMORE... Take some legacy DH like Lilith and non-legacy like Captain and check how they fight against other classes, if we allow legacy set we should make 2 types of different rules for DH, if not gl&hf. EDIT: if someone want to say "go and buy legacy set nobody stop you" look at this: this legacy set is non end-game legacy set, some players have better, but we cannot buy even AVERAGE legacy set: http://eu.battle.net/d3/pl/profile/Uzjel33-2804/hero/16920624 [img]http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8194/58891976.png[/img] [img]http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2268/50119471.png[/img] [img]http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/9233/73010279.png[/img] [img]http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/6598/37191725.png[/img] If you will not do anything with it only old luckers who bought this set a long time ago can fight in your league.
Iria	2013-03-08 22:52
Yeah it really does give legacy DH a heavy advantage in that match-up. The match-up is actually in favor of the non-legacy DH until the legacy DH starts stacking EHP; once the legacy DH can't be killed in 1-hit, the match quickly tips in favor of the legacy DH. I think I proved this point quite clearly when dueling against Mystical. We both used similar EHP and DPS (maybe I had a little more EHP but doesn't matter), and every time (except our first round), I lost when I ran out of discipline, not before. Perhaps we can make a non-legacy DH league or something for these particular match-ups lol. I know that Cyon (a top US DH) already converted to legacy and I am feeling I will be at a bigger disadvantage as more and more DH try to switch. The biggest problem is not the gear itself, but the fact it is available in a limited quantity and the good pieces are of such limited quantity, no such pieces exist in circulation.
predsr	2013-03-08 22:55
Theres lots of top tier legacy stuff on ah atm
GREEN2172	2013-03-08 23:01
It's true if we delete "top tier" words from your post;]
Iria	2013-03-08 23:42
EU and US AH have different stuff. Yes, there is always the possibility of some really top tier items appearing for $250.00 USD or 2B gold, but they are very uncommon. As far as the issue is concerned, maybe there needs to be some limitation for legacy vs non-legacy DH matches? I think legacy vs legacy and non-legacy vs non-legacy are fine as they are. Also, how does legacy vs non-legacy affect other classes? I think only the DH vs Barb match favors the legacy more than the non-legacy; for the other matches, I don't think the Natalya's version matters as much.
mannercookie	2013-03-09 00:07
You want to develop balancing rules, which is a bad idea imo for the reasons I stated in the last post. The only rules that need to be developed right now are rules for how the procedure of a duel goes, how a match counts score, obv no gear swaps of any single slot unless between rounds. This is a rock/paper/scissor type pvp game, if you don't include that element it just doesn't work. Develop rules for how the matches go, not rules for items/skills, then let people play the league out and from there start making balance changes. I don't understand why you would try to tweak the game's balance when no one has even seen the game at it's full potential for all classes yet at max'd out gear. Leave it the way it is, let people try and figure out specs/setups that work and don't work and if there are problems in the matchups, it'll show itself in the matches. I know a few of you guys since beginning of PTR and although I love the ideal of a league, I don't agree with the rules and the issues with dueling I addressed near the beginning/middle of this thread are not really dealt with.
GREEN2172	2013-03-09 00:16
So problems will be if any other class not yours will be OP? But if your class is OP so balance is no needed? Briliant logic.
mannercookie	2013-03-09 00:23
lol I can see now my input is not wanted here on D3CL. just another forum full of trolls. Enjoy guys.
GREEN2172	2013-03-09 00:29
No, you're wrong. Every opinion matters, just you don't played a lot of hours in DH vs DH or DH vs other classes, so why you said that balance isn't needed? Every class can post about their balance, not you - prO PvP top1 uber all said that balance is good now;]
predsr	2013-03-09 01:04
I think you got the wrong idea green, hes not saying balance is not needed at all.  I think you got some kind of 'hate' towards mannercookie for some reason also, just actuly read properly what hes posting :) Basicly its still early in pvp right now, like he said, pvp's full potential hasnt realy been explored yet, specs/maxd out gear etc, i kinda agree to this Some people are sayng too many changes have been proposed and they need to do small changes at a time, having looked at the proposed rules, the list is not actuly that big at all, however the suggestions on the forums is giving it the illusion that 100's of changes have been made best idea so far imo is no gear swap!
jinshin85	2013-03-09 01:19
Yeah, we should ban gear swapping. I actually think Blizzard should disable opening up the inventory window within the Scorched Chapel or something. I originally thought swapping weapons was "okay", but nowadays a lot of people are like swapping the entire gear set while running away for 15 seconds. lol
Blud	2013-03-09 02:36
Im happy most of you are coming to sense about gear swap. We need to ban it asap.
Euronymous	2013-03-09 05:09
RoGH, I don't get why you would ban only weapon/offhand gearswaps because other swaps are harder to detect? If gearswapping during fights results in a ban from the league, I don't think people would take the risk to get caught on video with it. That way you can detect swaps which affect the appearance or HP amount and that should cover most game changing swaps. @Green Can you please stop whining about legacy nats prices? Other pvp items on these slots cost just as much if not more and also scale much higher. The potential gain on your 1080dps manticore alone is much higher than the difference between a 100m legacy nat set and a 5b set and I don't see you complaining about manticore prices. If D3 pvp ever gets popular there will probably be some kind of budget league, until then you just have to accept that it's mostly about gear.
Iria	2013-03-09 07:16
Anyone have an opinion on my method of preventing gear swap? By making the other player hold 59 spaces worth of junk, they cant gear swap. Just have both players prove to each other that they aren't holding anything while in the arena.
Mr.Mag	2013-03-09 10:03
green switch game language to english plz ;)
MysticaL	2013-03-09 10:48
I like this idea, I think this could be useful, they can just exchange an inventory of 59 slots with you every time before you say "go" --> you remove 59 slots --> your opponent adds 59 slots --> implies both players have no items in inventory except pot, then start the duel without either one TPing to town lol It's probably annoying to do before each duel, but it also works
predsr	2013-03-09 11:12
Make sure they blue items also ^^
RoGH	2013-03-09 11:15
I like this idea, I think this could be useful, they can just exchange an inventory of 59 slots with you every time before you say "go" --> you remove 59 slots --> your opponent adds 59 slots --> implies both players have no items in inventory except pot, then start the duel without either one TPing to town lol It's probably annoying to do before each duel, but it also works [/quote] Its greatly annoying. @Euro, maybe youre right and the risk of getting banned from the league will be enough to make ppl not to swap their gear.
devilek666	2013-03-09 11:35
Yeah, banning swap of items and from league if someone get caught is actually a great idea. Maybe it will be hard to detec with armor peaces, but anyway, players will record their fights and might analyze hp of other players, or taking screenshots...What I mean, admins should just set this rules and don't worry if it's detectale or not..Believe me, people are creative and they will find a way to proove it when it happens.
jointit	2013-03-09 13:02
I was and still am suspect to the no swap gear cause of the huge amount of work that follows with it for judges, all the in game huzzle for players it creates and also that it might not even be a good idea. But two things, 1) if most people seem to really wanna try it I guess its giving it a shot, and 2) like you guys say the risk of getting banned is enough for people to behave :D (I know from experience that people wont though but it might lower the abuse to a point that its at least possible to deal with) Also, the rule about activitity is just like in d2 and works on the same premisses at the swap rule - namely that the rule itself and the risk of getting banned /losing the duel will make people follow it. Problem in d3 is that temporarly hiding for replenish and cooldowns is part of the game and would for sure be called camping / non-active in d2. In my opinion its still worth giving it a shot even if it has to be with some retarded ~30 second timer. This rule is partly to prevent the 2 minute wotb hiding, but honestly also for the future where we might have patches with bigger open fields. Believe it or not, some people go full retard in pvp and put on 100% m/s eq and just run around at for example 40 radius distance when their hit radius is 25. The activity rule is also something that adress the 100% ehp eq for 2 minute cooldown swaps. With a rule like that you´re not allowed to hide with 15 mil ehp for 2 minutes and to get people to follow it is alot easier than some might think. But dunno, maybe its worth giving the swap rule a shot and see if we get a better situation. Worst case scenario is that none of us likes it and we just take it away. Also, its getting close to end date for 1.2 rules as I see it, so Devil and Vimer and Mannercookie from barb side - post your final suggestions + a very short reason for barb rules for 1.2. Example - barb vs wiz - barb is allowed to use 1 stun skill only - barb cannot wear a shield reason: Barb needs to take more dmg vs wiz, and barb is completly OP with 3 stun skills since wiz only got 1 counter. Or something like that ;D
kaio	2013-03-09 13:51
Imo we need to think also a way to prevent inspect/go down in arena tp town swap spec come down in arena say go.. or go to inspect again in arena than go back town.. and so on... We all know  who is doing this more than all.. but this rule is not for him only... Imo Best solution comes form Euro propose: Say go in town and than go down if sm1 tp back lose the match and this resolve also the problem of "who start where" cose for ranged duels all want bottom left corner..
Lilith	2013-03-11 15:09
Any changes in rules from main post?
predsr	2013-03-11 16:05
Dont think so.. i read in another part of forum that there might be some new ones today tho
Yowie	2013-03-11 21:56
Make it illegal to use invis dye... hard to see MONK serenity
TheBGAnt	2013-03-11 22:16
I want to ask few questions before I say my two cents regarding the new rules. I am sure that many people like me were waiting for the first season to finish for the new rules. I don’t know if they question which I have were asked but here they are. (I have read only the first 10 pages of the topic.) 1) For me it is extremely important to know what will be done with the bonus/reduce from elite “bug” be done? I am pretty sure that blizzard will not fix that nonsense that heroes are elites and what I was thinking is that the old D2 rule is suitably here. I am sure that all high end D2 players remember that in PvP mode it was allowed to have only 1 item to absorb damage or in other words - 1 raven or dwarf or wisp. I think that it is appropriate in D3 that we have 1 item for bonus vs. elites and 1 item for damage reduce from elites. In this way there we be much more variety and item choice and from that some of the new rules will be useless and there will be no need of such high restrictions on some chars like WD. 2) Regarding Near Death Experience & Spirit Vessel I want to ask if a players kill a monk or a doctor with that passive were they granted 2 points? (For obvious reason a players die 2 times so 2 points must be given for the winner.) 3) Is the old D2 rule of no potions active in PvP mode for D3? Regarding the new rules which I was waiting: 1) Regarding “The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”. This style is defined by laying “Turrets and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.” how is that defined? Simple example – If I play agents such style barb who only rend and moves and don’t use any active skills at all I as a DH will not move outside my bubble because of the poor style of the barb. Why should the DH be penalized for that? Overall I don’t have a problem with such type of players because of the high life regen compensation from the skill but now I will receive a game loss because of that. Second example – Against WD. When the doctor has used haunt for sure I will not move outside the bubble because that’s the reason for me to use that skill so that I can reduces the doctor effect of that skill. I can give more examples but how that rule will be defined at all because based on the situation both sides can have their deferent point of view (just to clarify a DH which is using only turret no traps)? 2) Regarding “In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Companion” with the rune “Boar” is not allowed.” That’s pointless, a high end player already have 700-900 to all. That rule is for players with bad items which can lose an important skill for those 15% bonus. Such rule is against the overall balance. 3) Regarding “In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” is not allowed.” Yet again a pointless rule…  We need Blizzard to fix the mage not such type of rules… For sure the DH needs nerfs, not some illogical restrictions. 4) Regarding “In a mirror match Barbarians cannot use a shield.” I am sure that’s some kind of joke especially in a mirror match… Both sides must be able to choose whatever style they wish. Such rule is not towards balance for sure. 5) Regarding “In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” and “Witch Doctor” the passive skill “Inspiring presence” is not allowed” If the “bug” with bonus/reduce from elites is removed this is yet again against balance. Also I don’t see exact explanation regarding skill selection before duel. The obvious choice is that the judge tells each player before the duel there class only and both players enter the chapel with their first choice of skill selection, no skill change before the end of first round. Hmm already my post is too long and would like to see some answers.
RoGH	2013-03-11 22:30
Ad 1) We all have in mind those absorb rules, but its a bit different. With few absorbs and some outstanding res it was simply IMPOSSIBLE to die from elemental chars. Right now we cant afford creating rules which will make players to buy totally different items for our D3CL league. Why? Because there are still too few players and im sure that with such rules many will just leave us and search for something easier to obey. But this might be a topic in the future. Ad 2) Technically, hes not dying, there is no message in chat log about dying - so no. Ad 3) No, because due to life regen and some other skills and cooldown on potions - its not that imba as it was in d2 and potion abusing is not possible. About new rules or, to bo more precise, some draft rules we have posted. Ad 4) This was proposed due to the fact that we had situations were two barbs couldnt kill each other because they both were using shields and were simply too tanky. But it wont be in final version. Ad 5) Inspiring presence ban also wont be in final version, because it would be very difficult for some barbs - they would need to rebuild their characters and buy as many items with life regen as possible. We have some other solution.
ricebowl	2013-03-11 22:34
1.  How is this a bug in any way?  It has been intentional from the very start of the game that players count as elites, according to one of the gargantuan runes.  Since every class has access to SoJ, I don't see a problem here at all.  DHs and monks depend on SoJ greatly to boost their resource pools.  Monks can't really generate spirit through attacking in PvP.  If I couldn't use SoJ on my monk, there would be almost no point in dueling because I would lose way, way too much spirit regen and damage. 2.  This is nonsense.  NDE simply gives 35% more EHP.  Spirit vessel gives invul + 15% EHP.  Should we also make barbs who take an armor passive worth 2 points too, since that increases their EHP as well? 3.  Potions have a cooldown and add gear diversity.  There will be a rule to prevent gear swapping so you won't be able to abuse it with gear swapping +globe healing.  But I agree that it can sometimes be overwhelming in high amounts.  Perhaps a rule that only allows one +globe healing piece? 1.  It's a very loose definition that is obviously being worked on right now.  I can understand the idea behind it but execution will be difficult. 2.  It's because the boar can absorb storm armor procs which is the biggest source of the wizard's damage in addition to making the DH much tankier.  Banning skills should be the last option, but here I believe it is appropriate because wizards have a hard time as it is. 3.  No real opinion on this one. 4.  I think this is to prevent stalemates.  Maybe make it so that shields are allowed only if both agree to it beforehand? 5.  This is to prevent lingering stalemates once again, because barbs have so much mobility.  They can kite around the map forever until they get to full hp.
jinshin85	2013-03-11 22:41
Stopped reading here. LOL
Iria	2013-03-11 22:56
So about 1 hour left! My only overall grievances are regarding super-super tanky characters or those partially tanky characters with massive life regeneration. The play style goes with this as well: all barbs now just rend and run, rend and run. They lack creativity and just flee from the action until they are at high hp again. The only countermeasure to this is to have a similar amount of life regeneration which effectively resets the duel every time they run, which of course yields a stalemate, which of course defeats the purpose of PVP, and lastly will discourage players from playing. I prefer duels where both players can be killed by the other, even if they are 1-hit-KOs. I detest duels where one side can't kill the other due to massive life regeneration and fleeing. I think the most immediate fix to all these problems is to simply abolish the PVP system for 1v1s and just go with 2v2 only. The nature of 2v2 with friendly fire will cover a lot if not all of the current imbalances in the PVP league. If team styles pose a problem (e.g. double DH), the rules can maybe limit teams to no more than one of any class per team.
ricebowl	2013-03-11 22:59
Except nobody would ever want to team up with a wizard or witch doctor.
Lilith	2013-03-11 23:05
I can play with wiz in same team but without storm armor^^
jinshin85	2013-03-11 23:09
So about 1 hour left! My only overall grievances are regarding super-super tanky characters or those partially tanky characters with massive life regeneration. The play style goes with this as well: all barbs now just rend and run, rend and run. They lack creativity and just flee from the action until they are at high hp again. The only countermeasure to this is to have a similar amount of life regeneration which effectively resets the duel every time they run, which of course yields a stalemate, which of course defeats the purpose of PVP, and lastly will discourage players from playing. I prefer duels where both players can be killed by the other, even if they are 1-hit-KOs. I detest duels where one side can't kill the other due to massive life regeneration and fleeing. I think the most immediate fix to all these problems is to simply abolish the PVP system for 1v1s and just go with 2v2 only. The nature of 2v2 with friendly fire will cover a lot if not all of the current imbalances in the PVP league. If team styles pose a problem (e.g. double DH), the rules can maybe limit teams to no more than one of any class per team. [/quote] So, are you saying that the only playstyle that give your DH some problem is bad? Barbs rend and run because that's the only viable build option they have at the moment. What do you want them to do? If they run, you chase. Can't you run at like 200% ms when you use vault with tactical? I, too, don't like when barbs just run away for 15 seconds and come back at it with full life again. But I can't really blame them because that's pretty much the best build they have for this patch.
kaio	2013-03-11 23:29
So about 1 hour left! My only overall grievances are regarding super-super tanky characters or those partially tanky characters with massive life regeneration. The play style goes with this as well: all barbs now just rend and run, rend and run. They lack creativity and just flee from the action until they are at high hp again. The only countermeasure to this is to have a similar amount of life regeneration which effectively resets the duel every time they run, which of course yields a stalemate, which of course defeats the purpose of PVP, and lastly will discourage players from playing. I prefer duels where both players can be killed by the other, even if they are 1-hit-KOs. I detest duels where one side can't kill the other due to massive life regeneration and fleeing. I think the most immediate fix to all these problems is to simply abolish the PVP system for 1v1s and just go with 2v2 only. The nature of 2v2 with friendly fire will cover a lot if not all of the current imbalances in the PVP league. If team styles pose a problem (e.g. double DH), the rules can maybe limit teams to no more than one of any class per team. [/quote] So, are you saying that the only playstyle that give your DH some problem is bad? Barbs rend and run because that's the only viable build option they have at the moment. What do you want them to do? If they run, you chase. Can't you run at like 200% ms when you use vault with tactical? I, too, don't like when barbs just run away for 15 seconds and come back at it with full life again. But I can't really blame them because that's pretty much the best build they have for this patch. [/quote] +1 we need to understand the difference betwin "active play"  and just passive/camping here in d3 it's a bit different than in d2 this aspect..
GREEN2172	2013-03-11 23:59
no kaio, I think you're wrong. Barb playstyle is so bad because they  have AoE dota (17 meters with rune) which attack through walls and hit 700% dmg, and they can run on sprint ALL THE TIME. Someone said that DH can run too - it's a lie, we have limitated dyscypline, this rule should be only for DH with legacy nat. If barbs cannot abusing their OP hp regen + all time sprint + aoe dota they will find other skills, like ancient spear (dunno exacly the name) or weapon throw or strong attack from ambush. Now they run like mouses only hitting aoe dota and hide with their 4-7khp regen per 1s. Many barbs here told us (DH) to find other skills. But wait... why WE should reagear and search for other skills against babrs and they cannot do that? Because of what? Pls tell me.
Lilith	2013-03-12 00:02
its 12-03-2012. Whee is rules for 2nd seson?;p
RoGH	2013-03-12 00:08
We are like blizzard, coming soon :P
Spirals	2013-03-12 00:08
Topic is closed as of now. I will (with the help of the ruledev team) post the rules on tuesday. It's now just past midnight so expect them sometime during the day (afternoon comes first). See my initial post for more information. I want to thank all contributors for their participation and feedback. /e after Milan Barca 1.2.5. will be posted.

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